New to UW Photography - Need advice

[Hotpuppy]

Hello,
I'm hoping to get some advice to help me sort out which route to take. I have a good deal of experience on land, but I would starve if I tried to be a professional photographer. I classify myself as a serious amateur. That said, I did photo journalism in college and in the Army.

I have always been a Pentax fan, but apparently I'm in a dwindling group. I currently have a istD and a Canon HG10. I'm not quite ready to risk taking my camcorder under water......besides the HD housings are crazy expensive.


It seems like there are two paths, DIY-ish and Sealife-style. Sealife seems to make a very nice, very easy to use underwater point and shoot with great warranty for about $900 new. As a bonus they can take VGA video which is sufficient for something like Youtube.

The alternative seems to be buy an Ikelite strobe, housing, and either a EOS or Canon/Nikon Point & Shoot. Some of these can be had on Ebay for decent prices and it looks like you can really grow with this route.

Initially my goal is to take nice snapshots of my dives. I can see that a strobe is critical to getting a good picture. Of course, I have a tendency to frame my better snapshots for my own art at home.

One of the things that appeals about a Sealife setup is that it is easy to use and compensates for the color shift underwater. One of the unknowns with something like a Canon or Nikon Point & Shoot is that these cameras typically don't have that sort of setup.

What am I probably missing the boat on as a newbie to dive photography? I'm hoping that others with more experience can help steer me in the right direction. My initial "budget" for underwater photography is around $1000. I'd be fine with spending less, but I'm not wanting to spend more than that.

My assessment of Sealife's DC 1000 / DC 1200 is that they are capable but limited and I'm trying to figure out if anyone uses them for the long haul and is happy with them.

My quandry with a P&S is that I have never really liked them on land. I find the depth of focus and pictures to be on par with my cell phone.

If I could find a housing for my Pentax, I would happily take it underwater.... I'm familiar with it, and it is old enough I won't cry if or when it floods. It does not do video, but it will shoot and store tons of pics. I think it is around 6 megapixel and I've printed and framed cropped shots at 11x17 with no real issues. In fact, most people think that the pictures are on photo paper when in reality they are simply color inkjet on copy paper in a nice frame.

FWIW, I do plan to take the PADI Underwater Photographer specialty course.... but I want to learn as much as I can before I do. I have a hunch that the slant in the course will be dependant on the instructor's personal preferences.

 

[mjh]

Would suggest going with a point and shoot, housing and strobe. You can often find excellent used equipment here and at Wetpixel in addition to ebay. Many love the G10 or G11. If your "0-24" dives is still correct the following is my standard admonishment; cameras really change the way you dive so please be very comfortable with your diving. Especially your buoyancy and kicking techniques.

 

[Nemrod]

If you are really a "serious" amateur and you really want "nice" pictures then without moving to a dSLR rig you have several choices:

1. Canon S90 with FIX-S90 housing
2. Canon G11 with FIX-G11 housing or Patima housing
3. Sea and Sea DX-2G
4. Olympus ELP-1 and new Olympus housing, slated for late March release
5. Look for a recently discontinued Canon A570 or A590 and housing from Ikelite

OEM housings are OK but not very heavy duty and tend to be a throw away item IMO.

Two Inon S/D2000 strobes will provide your lighting.

Recommendations on your seriousness.

Color balance can be dealt with in Photoshop CS4 or Elements, the Canon cameras recommended can shoot RAW files either out of the box or via a hack.

If you go SLR housing and equipment, it gets big, expensive and complicated really fast.

Off brand cameras like Pentax and Minolta and that are not much supported for UW photography, it is a very limited market to build for and Olympus, Nikon, Canon are essentially it.

The Sealife, yawn, no manual control, don't know what a "Shark" mode is, no RAW, no way.

RAW is way over rated.

The 1,000 dollars is chump change when it comes to being anything close to resembling being "serious." I would save my money until I could afford to get something with a little more capability if you really are serious.

Example, my newest rig, similar cameras with similar capability will be in the same price range or higher give or take:

Canon S90--400 dollars
FIX housing---800 dollars
FIX lens adapter--200 dollars
Homemade tray--50 dollars
Arms and balls and clamps--200 dollars
D/S2000 strobes with diffusers and optical cables--1,200 to 1,500 dollars
Inon UCL macro lens---165 dollars
Inon WAL (wide angle lens) or UWAL (fisheye) ---300 to 800 dollars

Underwater, my opinion, you must have a strobe, at least one, you must get close to eliminate water between you and subject and therefore a WAL is essential, don't leave home without it if you are at all serious.

You don't need an SLR.

Other considerations. Wet mount lenses come in a variety of mounts, mostly 67mm threaded, Inon AD/AD28 mount and ST (Sea Tool) mount. Not all, in fact very few, current P&S cameras can effectively utilize them and then the housing must also.

Strobe can last a long time and grow system to system, Inon, Sea and Sea YS and Ikelite are good brands. Ikelite is a long time maker of UW photo equipment with a good reputation for service and durability if not small size and state of the art.

Above statements are based on my being a serious amateur. If I were a pro or made a living with a camera or was really dead serious then right now, there is very little substitute for a dSLR but the Canon G11 and S90 and the DX-2G can give them a run for the money as long as you temper your expectations. There is also the reduced weight, size, expense, travel packing limits etc to consider.

N

 

[Becca_007]

I'm surprised you like your Pentax so much but compare point and shoots to a cell phone. I loathe cell phone pics for their grainy, blurry images but find my point and shoot to take really great shots. I have a Canon SD550. I also have a full dSLR but the convenience of a small form point and shoot that also takes video is very nice to have. All that said, I've shot with the SD550 underwater for 4 years if you count the snorkeling before the diving. I use the Canon underwater housing, no strobes, and I don't bother with white balance until images are on my computer. Simply take a picture of a white slate at different points in the dive and adjust the color after. I use the free Canon software that came with my dSLR to do this. A point and shoot with housing can be had for as little as $500 last I looked. When it comes to the sealife stuff I'm actually not that impressed with the shots I've seen from others. Maybe it's their style and experience though as I haven't tried one myself.

 

[Hotpuppy]

There are some good points being made.... however
Please don't take my OP to be an attack on dSLRs or PS.

As for Pentax.... I learned (like many) on a K1000 and took some good shots (and alot of bad ones) on Black and White. I still like my black and white prints.

I think Canon makes a great camera. As does Nikon.

Really my post is about gathering information to decide on one of 3 paths.

1. Sealife (a wet point and shoot?)
2. A canon or Nikon P&S in a case with a strobe.
3. a digital SLR in a case with a strobe.

If you look at SeaLife Underwater Cameras You will see some pretty nice shots taken with their cameras.

The advantages I see right now are:

Sealife: Fixed cost, simple to use, can be resold without much effort. Has very limited expandability but will probably handle most pictures I want without costing me an arm and a leg. The support is said to be great.

P&S in case: Probably a little less expensive than a Sealife, but will require more post-shot work to adjust images and the strobes can ultimately be re-used if I decide later to go Dslr.

Dslr: It's going to eat my budget alive and I will have to buy gear incrementally. As I buy gear incrementally I will be forced to compromise between what I can afford and what I want.

Realistically, I think I would go for a P&S in a case with decent strobes and then later upgrade to a Digital SLR before I would buy a dslr out of the box. Which makes this really a Sealife vs. DIY. And yes, I consider it DIY when you pick your strobes, buy a 3rd party case, and put a camera somewhere that the manufacturer really didn't intend for it to go. It's not necessarily a bad thing.... as I have a CNC Mill and some other toys at my disposal for making gadgets.

It all goes back to something someone once said to me.... "Do you want to go sailing? or build boats?" I could probably design and build a underwater case if I really wanted to... but that isn't my goal. My goal is to take pictures that I preferably do not have to sit down in photoshop with to "fix". I find that sitting at the computer redoing pictures is over-rated and not nearly as much fun as taking the photos.

I normally shoot lots and lots of frames. I took some photos for a friend and set up my Alien Bee strobes and a backdrop. In 2 hours of shooting we took about 1,000 frames and then went back and selected the 15 or 20 that were good from that. That's my style. I'm fine with taking a few hundred pictures and only have 3 or 4 that I consider "good". That isn't to say that the hundreds of other pictures were bad, just that the 15 or 20 we picked had everything we were looking for in her photos. I suspect that shooting underwater will be similar to shooting people. Things beyond your control can make a shot less appealing and it's better to take a few extras.

 

[vondo]

1. Sealife (a wet point and shoot?)

[...]

Sealife: Fixed cost, simple to use, can be resold without much effort. Has very limited expandability but will probably handle most pictures I want without costing me an arm and a leg. The support is said to be great.

There are a couple of misconceptions here, I think. The Sealife is still a P&S in a case, but the case is more form fitting than the Canons and Nikons. Also, the Sealife is not going to magically fix all the problems with underwater white balance. My recollection is that they have 3 underwater presets instead of 1 (good for snorkeling, basically), but that's not nearly enough to get a natural looking photo at any recreational depth. The Sealife's are re-branded Ricoh's, again, if memory serves.

It's entirely possible to get quite good shots out of a housed P&S without an external strobe. It's more limiting and you have to pick your subjects carefully, but it can be done. PM me if you want a link to my gallery taken with my Canon G10 in the stock housing with the internal flash.

I'm looking to get a strobe at some point and it will open up new avenues for me, but it is by no means a waste to use the camera without it.

 

[hammerhead man]

Hotpuppy, you should really consider the Sea&Sea cameras as well as Sealife. The advantage of the Sea&Sea DX-1G or 2G is that you can use them as point and shoot as well as full manual. The DX-1G also comes with an underwater setting and you can get the camera and housing for around $680. I currently have the 1G with a separate wide angle lens, a close-up lens, and two Sea&Sea YS-110a strobes. The pics you can get from them are very good. (click on my photos link under my name in the left panel to see examples). I also have used the DX-1g as an above water camera for a trip to Egypt and got great pics. I especially liked the wide angle lens that the camera has. If you want examples of above water shots, email me at jamescrew6@verizon.net and I will be happy to send a few of my Egypt pics.

Regards,

Bill

 

[Nemrod]

Hello,
I'm hoping to get some advice to help me sort out which route to take. I classify myself as a serious amateur. That said, I did photo journalism in college and in the Army.

There are some good points being made.... however


The advantages I see right now are:

Sealife: Fixed cost, simple to use, can be resold without much effort. Has very limited expandability but will probably handle most pictures I want without costing me an arm and a leg. The support is said to be great.

P&S in case: Probably a little less expensive than a Sealife, but will require more post-shot work to adjust images and the strobes can ultimately be re-used if I decide later to go Dslr.

Dslr: It's going to eat my budget alive and I will have to buy gear incrementally. As I buy gear incrementally I will be forced to compromise between what I can afford and what I want.

and

Hello,
I'm seriously considering going with a Sealife camera and was wondering how others feel about theirs?

My main purpose is to take pictures for myself and to share with friends. The pics will wind up on my blog or webpage from time to time. Other than that I may print them out and frame them for at the house.

I am leaning towards Sealife because I don't want to get stuck fighting with very expensive equipment and I'd rather take snapshots and pick through them. Realistically, I'm not going to earn a living taking shots underwater.

I like that SL can do video even if it isn't ultra high quality, it will work for what I am likely to use it for.

I originally was looking at a DC 1000. It seems like the DC 800 has some issues. What are the drawbacks to a DC600 or DC 500? I realize that the megapixel rating is lower, but that isn't the end-all be-all. In fact, I was surprised to see that the DC 1000 is 10mp at 24bit rgb and the dc 1200 is going to be 12mp at 12bit rgb which is half the color depth.

My thinking was that a used dc500 or dc600 would let me conserve cash, take pics, and then upgrade later on. Battery life, strobe battery life, and storage capacity are likely to be my biggest headaches.

A "P&S" like the G11 or S90 will likely cost more than a Sealife, have much greater capability and satisfaction if you are "serious" per your original post.

The Sealife is a very low end auto only camera with a fancy housing that is no better or more rugged than an OEM housing.

The MP Myth is confusing you.

Your posts in several threads and this one seem to conflict, hope you figure it all out . When you know what you want then you can make a better decision.

I see your quandary differently, more like this:

Money Biased Decision <--------vs-----------> Capability Biased Decision

Good luck.
N

 

[Darnold9999]

IMHO unless you can shoot RAW you will be disapointed in the result. Post processing on land after the fact is so much easier than trying to get the fairly stupid software in the camera to do post processing in the middle of the dive. I spend roughly 20 seconds a picture on post processing, unless I find one I really like and then I might spend two or three minutes. Lightroom is your friend. Not the same process for underwater pictures as it is for above water. The water absorbes light so quickly that the ability to compensate for it after the fact is something you will want to do.

I started with a Sealife and while I got some shots I liked I quickly bumped up against its limitations and moved to a housed dSLR. I suspect as a serious amateur you will bump up against the limitations of a non RAW camera even quicker that I did.

Shooting without a strobe will be frustrating. I did exactly one dive without a strobe with the Sealife and one liveaboard trip with my dSLR with a broken strobe. You can get good pictures without a strobe with a dSLR but you really have to work at it and the deeper you go the less light you have to work with. The point and shoots actually do fairly well without a strobe in mid range shots, but you will want RAW to colour correct after.

 

[Becca_007]

To add more regarding my own experience, I have a Canon SD series in a Canon underwater housing. Fits is made for my model camera only, no features are lost, and it's actually made by Canon (or at least sold by Canon).

For color correction... you can color correct an entire batch of .jpegs at once using the Canon Digital Pro software which came with my dSLR. In Cozumel I would take a picture of a white slate once per dive then color correct every image using the slate as the control. If you want even more flexibility you can for some point and shoots to record in the RAW format. I played with it a bit but now that we have a underwater setup for dSLR I see no need to deal with RAW on the point and shoot.

Every picture I've taken with the Canon point and shoot has been without a strobe. Typically I turn the flash off. When I do use the flash I get a dark spot in the lower right hand corner which I can live with too.