new divers and rescue skills

[Jim Lapenta]

You cannot question the value of CPR training for anyone. I quit my company's safety committe because of the hypocrisy of some who wanted to be on the committee but refused to get CPR certed. They wanted the free lunches and paid hour to sit on their ass but not to help anyone. Emergencies don't just happen in the water. A new OW diver with CPR training could help the slob who dives but refuses to stay in shape and has a heart attack putting his bc on the tank. I also see the effect of CPR training having a bit to do with showing people that this is a serious activity with serious consequences. I recommend all my students get CPR training. I have been trying to find a way to become an instructor for the Red Cross so I can offer it but classes for instructors in my area are held very infrequently and at inopportune times. I'd like to get a DAN instructor rating since there are no DAN classes within 100 miles of me but I can't at this time afford the class and the travel to do it. If I were an instructor I'd make basic CPR part of my OW class. While I could not actually require it I could strongly suggest it and based on the people I get to train I doubt anyone would object or refuse it.

As for the raising a diver from depth I have found that it takes time to teach that skill and have students do it competently and effectively. It takes about 15 minutes of DETAILED explanation and another 15 minutes of practice and I have 80lb twelve year olds bringing their 6 foot 200 lb dads up and getting them to the side of the pool in a controlled and efficient manner. No panic, no fuss, no screw ups. But by the time we get to that skill they have done more task loading drills and had more water time in the pool than some AOW students from other agencies have had total. By the time we get to the rescue skills portion of the course they have already had 12-14 hours in the pool. This is normal for an SEI OW class.

Could I get an average OW student who has had maybe 4-5 hours in the pool to do this? Maybe. Probably. If they had 4-5 hours of good solid instruction and understood buoyancy control and what it really is. I'd bet I could take one of boudlerjohn's, peter guy's, Quero's or one of the other instructors on here who has gotten away from the on their knees (pray I survive this stuff) training and in about 45 minutes teach them to effectively perform the drill before their checkout dives. Could I do this with one of the on their knees, do the skill once, and move on students? Doubt it. But then they should not even be going to do checkouts yet, IMO.

The fact is that all of the skills we teach in the OW class are not hard or difficult. They do require instruction and a good basic foundation. But they are not beyond the capability or understanding of the average OW diver. Too often new divers are treated like they are beyond them. This is insulting to the student and to the instructor. People who decide to dive as a general rule are not stupid. I just choose to treat them as intelligent, capable, and competent human beings. Why any entity thinks they need to talk down to people and dumb down instruction is beyond me and part of the reason we have divers asking such basic questions as how much weight do I need and putting tanks on backwards. They are not expected to be competent. Start expecting it and demanding they perform to expectations and they will if they want to dive. If they don't , well maybe they don't want it bad enough.

 

[boulderjohn]

As for the raising a diver from depth I have found that it takes time to teach that skill and have students do it competently and effectively. It takes about 15 minutes of DETAILED explanation and another 15 minutes of practice and I have 80lb twelve year olds bringing their 6 foot 200 lb dads up and getting them to the side of the pool in a controlled and efficient manner. No panic, no fuss, no screw ups. But by the time we get to that skill they have done more task loading drills and had more water time in the pool than some AOW students from other agencies have had total. By the time we get to the rescue skills portion of the course they have already had 12-14 hours in the pool. This is normal for an SEI OW class.

Could I get an average OW student who has had maybe 4-5 hours in the pool to do this? Maybe. Probably. If they had 4-5 hours of good solid instruction and understood buoyancy control and what it really is. I'd bet I could take one of boudlerjohn's, peter guy's, Quero's or one of the other instructors on here who has gotten away from the on their knees (pray I survive this stuff) training and in about 45 minutes teach them to effectively perform the drill before their checkout dives. Could I do this with one of the on their knees, do the skill once, and move on students? Doubt it. But then they should not even be going to do checkouts yet, IMO.

The fact is that all of the skills we teach in the OW class are not hard or difficult. They do require instruction and a good basic foundation. But they are not beyond the capability or understanding of the average OW diver. Too often new divers are treated like they are beyond them. This is insulting to the student and to the instructor. People who decide to dive as a general rule are not stupid. I just choose to treat them as intelligent, capable, and competent human beings. Why any entity thinks they need to talk down to people and dumb down instruction is beyond me and part of the reason we have divers asking such basic questions as how much weight do I need and putting tanks on backwards. They are not expected to be competent. Start expecting it and demanding they perform to expectations and they will if they want to dive. If they don't , well maybe they don't want it bad enough.

I am quite sure you can teach recovering an unconscious diver from the bottom in the amount of time you describe in an OW class. The question is not whether or not it can be done; the question is whether or not it should be done.

As I said, I think there is a real question as to whether or not the act of bringing an unconscious diver to the surface has ever resulted in a life saved. If not, then you are taking time out of an OW class to teach corpse recovery technique. Thal said time spent in instruction can result in better divers who do not get into that situation in the first place. I agree. That is why I want to spend as much time in the OW class teaching students to be safe and conscientious divers so that there will never be a need for their buddies to bring their bodies up from the bottom.

Earlier today there was a new post to an old thread in the Accidents and Incidents forum that indicated that the death of an instructor last summer was probably the result of oxygen toxicity. In my analysis of that description, the divers who were with him did not recognize the situation and did not know the procedure for raising a toxing diver. This is a very different situation, and it is indeed possible to raise a toxing diver successfully--but it is extremely hard to do properly. IMO, divers who are in a situation
which may result in a toxing diver should be trained in that skill, but not until they are likely to be in that situation. There is no point in teaching the skill long before then because it will be forgotten when it is later needed and because teaching it when it is not needed interferes with learning what is needed at that time. It is because of the learning principle of interference that I am not a fan of teaching corpse recovery in OW classes--I think students need to focus their attention on other skills and get really, really good at them before going on to other things.

 

[Ayisha]

But, remembering my first dive as a certified diver without the safety net of my instructor I was just a little freaked out. Part of that was I was with a complete set of strangers in new dive club. Part of that was the conditions. It was so foggy that morning I couldn't see the shore at about 150 ft from the beach. I was almost about to ditch my weights and swim back by myself and just call the dive. But I took couple deep breaths, said I'm a certified diver and I can do this and continued wit the dive. My training kicked in and I realized I could actually do this sport.

At that time I was still trying to get my buoyancy and weighting down. I was still having to think about where is my inflator, am I sinking or floating. Where is my buddy. So many things I was trying to do all at once. I was still in the task load overload stage as a newbie.

It took me until my 39th dive to be comfortable enough to plan and execute dives with only similarly trained buddies. I had done the previous 38 dives as training or dive shop organized dives and my two buddies and I were booked on a charter that friends of ours who were DM's were running. The charter was blown out due to high winds and my two friends and I decided that we should try a local 30 foot quarry that we hadn't been to yet that was on the way back. None of us had ever been diving without a leader nearby but we said we've got to start sometime.

The quarry was very silty with about 10 feet visibility at best. Everything went well and without a hitch until my reg got kicked out of my mouth when one of my buddies turned suddenly and I surprised myself at how calmly I put it back although I had never practiced it in the 4 months since I got certified. I didn't skip a beat and they had no idea I ever lost my reg. I had a hard time keeping up with the two men, and I was just behind them all the way. Later in the dive, I shone my light on my gauge to check my air and when I looked up, I could slightly see their bubbles up ahead. I kept going in that direction and almost immediately could see no trace of them. I put my light against my BC as I had learned in AOW a month earlier, but couldn't see their lights. I continued on hoping they stopped somewhere and I felt strangely calm and wanted to continue exploring rather than ascend by one minute. But I did ascend to them shouting my name at the surface and they were only about 20 feet away but the vis was max 10 feet so we couldn't see each other until we surfaced. In between, we found the box car, tracks and the pump as it was a working quarry when it flooded, and we enjoyed our dive.

We knew the second dive would end up being a night dive at some point, and we all had a light but no back-up light and no tank light marker. As twilight set in, the viz went to the distance of our light, which couldn't cut through the silt, so about 2 feet. This time the three of us stayed side by side and they slowed down. Everything went flawlessly until the dive light of one of my buddies suddenly went dead. We signalled to turn around and I hooked my arm in his and we made our way back to our entry point.

That was the first non-leader led dive day for all three of us. Several things went wrong and we dealt with them successfully and calmy and developed protocols for future dives together. I took the Rescue course the week after that and it was the best dive course I ever took. It gave me the skills and confidence to not only rescue myself but others if needed. I have gone on in the next 10 years to assist several people, mainly during runaway ascents and a few out of air emergencies. Back then the rescue course was two class and pool days and two full o/w days, but now it's been shortened. I can't imagine getting all those skills in during one o/w day, so perhaps there are less skills learned?

 

[Bob DBF]

Jim, I do want to clarify that the first aid and CPR in my OW class was not an "approved" course and there was no certification. It taught the process, demonstrated technique, checked the student for proper technique and reinforced the importance to be properly trained and certified.

One of the reasons that the dive training was done in a thorough manner was that you and your buddy, in all likelyhood, would be diving alone. No instructor, no DM, no boat crew, no phone service, no passersby and you and your buddy are responsible for each other. Diving is a dangerous pastime, you can not breathe water.

On and off over the years I have held First Aid and CPR certification, I will be renewing mine in the next few months, and regardless of my status I have been able to respond appropriatly to the emergencies I have been presented.



Bob
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I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

 

[Ayisha]

If I am diving with a buddy and there is no DM around, it certainly won't be on a boat, it will be a shore dive.

That may be true for you, but it is not true of people who dive off private boats.

 

[drrich2]

DiveNeptune:

CPR from a non-medical person (such as a bystander or family member) begun within 2 minutes, but delayed defibrillation-2-8%

CPR and defibrillation within 8 minutes-20%

So, my statement was true. Regarding cardiac arrest in the filed, CPR usually fails. Granted not always, and the benefits of a successful resuscitation can be great.

Thal.:

All divers I train have CPR (1 and 2 person), first aid, and oxygen administration ... that's what AAUS standards call for. Would the world not be a better place if all the training agencies did the same?

From a safety standpoint, yes. From a liberty standpoint, no.

Ah ... there is a major difference, all it would take is for the agencies to have the strength of will to decide to do it, nothing more, meet the spec to be certified, end of story. But there is no way to force pleasantness.

If there were, would you do it?

Folks, just because something is in rare cases highly beneficial doesn't always justify forcing it on everyone.

By the same reasoning, wouldn't the world be a better place if, by choice, no one ate greasy fried food, everyone worked out regularly, people didn't eat highly processed foods with trans fat and other unhealthy things, everyone brushed after every meal and flossed twice per day, etc...

Maybe. Now, would the world be a better place if the government FORCED everyone to live that way? Outlawed Burger King and McDonalds, etc...?

Richard.

 

[freewillie]

I never disputed CPR doesn't have value. For that matter everyone should take the course and training if they can. The life you save may be your family or friend. But that is true for nondivers as well as divers.

We've had many, many threads about how simply taking AOW class does not make one an advanced diver. My point is simply teaching rescue skills as part basic OW training does not make one more prepared to handled emergency situations. To say beginners need to have rescue training is increasing the task loading in a new diver.

Rescue diving and CPR is definitely next class I take. I think that you get more out of the courses when your skills as a diver are above completely neophyte beginner.

For that matter, why don't we require CPR for skiers since might have an accident, drivers since more likely have an accident, and flying since you really need to be useful as passenger when plane crashes.

 

[TMHeimer]

drrich2, I like your perspective, as I too think we (often times out of necessity) live in a world with far too many rules, permits, fees, governments passing laws that are for our own good (ah, the old seat belt debate!). CPR in an OW course is slightly different. The agency isn't the gov't. So adding requirements for OW certification would be decisions by private organisations that people choose to patronize. I think the agencies should be able to do whatever they want, since nothing is law and scuba is, for the most part, amazingly exempt from most gov't intrusion. You can buy a compressor and gear and dive uncertified. But you MUST wear a seat belt or get fined.

 

[lowviz]

...//...As for the raising a diver from depth I have found that it takes time to teach that skill and have students do it competently and effectively. It takes about 15 minutes of DETAILED explanation and another 15 minutes of practice and I have 80lb twelve year olds bringing their 6 foot 200 lb dads up and getting them to the side of the pool in a controlled and efficient manner...//....

Comparing this to Jim's rescue course, not even remotely close. I can't speak for Jim, and he would be the person to provide clarification, but I'm guessing this is just getting his peeps ready for what awaits in his rescue course.

....//...As I said, I think there is a real question as to whether or not the act of bringing an unconscious diver to the surface has ever resulted in a life saved. ....//.....

John,

I don't really think that this is Jim's intention in OW. Trained with those same divers and 200 lb dads in a zero-viz rescue scenario, -intimidating and rewarding instruction. Jim neglected to say that he also teaches bringing up a panicking diver. No debating the value of that skill with me. Thanks to Jim's prior instruction, the one skill that I really did well on in my solo instruction with Doppler was recovering a toxing diver. I was fricking ready for my victim to attempt field-stripping me on the way to the surface, just try it sucker...

 

[Jim Lapenta]

We have to look at what constitutes an unconscious diver. Just because someone is unresponsive on the bottom does not mean they are dead. The reg may still be in, the vic still breathing, but yet they do not respond to commands. I never said "dead" diver. Why are they not responding - passive panic? Envenomation by sea life? Reaction to coral or jelly fish sting? Maybe a ministroke? Much easier to determine and treat on the surface.

People also need to remember that there are no quick weekend courses in the SEI system. A minimum or 16 hours is recommended for pool instruction in the OW class. Could this be done in a weekend? Sure. Some sadist could make students do 8 hours a day in the pool. But I doubt they would last long and thier results would be similar to what we see with many overloaded students now. They'd suck. The brain would simply shut down and be incapable of absorbing any more knowledge.

I don't spend more than 2 1/2 hours per session in the pool and closer to 2. Students get cold even with exposure suits and the get tired. When thios happens the learning process comes to a screeching halt. Under our system students are supposed to have time between sessions to process what they learn and then next session we do a short review of the last. This is why on average a student has removed and replaced their mask perhaps 20 times or more before OW. They have been working on buoyancy and trim. This why by session 7 or 8 depending on the student and class progress raising a non-reponsive diver is somewhat stressful but not over loading. And they do it as individuals and as a buddy team.

It is pretty cool to see two divers who have been working as a team for 6-8 weeks take and raise a non repsonsive diver with no more effort than clearing a mask. And to see how pumped they are that they can. Every new skill they do successfully creates a more competent, skilled, informed, and safe new diver. And they seem to be more inclined to come back for the full class when they've had a taste. Rescue is an intense class. It should be. But it should not be intimidating or marketed in a way that students think it is beyond their ability.

Right now that seems to be the case if you read some of the posts here. And that delays entry or in some cases prevents it completely. And that is not what we need to be seeing.