New diver getting my certification, is my instructor doing it wrong?

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This happens to be a NAUI instructor, and I'm not sure what the NAUI standards are, but as PADI professional (without quotation marks around it, by the way), I can say that we are only able to report incidents if we have first-hand knowledge of them. We must have been involved directly or have witnessed the incident with our own eyes. We cannot make a report based on hearsay, and what we read on SB is hearsay, regardless of its degree of veracity. I presume that because a report may result in legal issues that NAUI, SSI, and the whole constellation of smaller agencies all have similar guidelines about reporting instructors for standards violations or reporting incidents resulting in injury.

PADI SEAP told my partner that she should have QA'd an instructor at a shop she was working at some years ago on the basis of what she was told by that instructor's student, so it appears they'll not only accept but actually require a QA based on second-hand knowledge. My partner had assumed, too, that she would have to have witnessed the incident, so she just encouraged the student to put in a complaint. PADI's stance then was that having an incident described to you by someone who was involved or witnessed it makes you responsible for initiating a QA.

I'd agree that probably doesn't extend to "I read it on the interwebs," though...
 
So then you are saying if a student were to come to you and tell you a story like the one told by the OP, there is nothing you can do about it other than encourage the student to make a report? Unless the student reports the instructor, that instructor can continue to teach in an unsafe manner?
Correct, in the main. What I could do about it would be to actually sit down with the student and help him/her complete the report form, or physically dial the telephone and hand the receiver to the student. I can be pro-active, but I cannot file a report as if I were there first-hand.

PADI SEAP told my partner that she should have QA'd an instructor at a shop she was working at some years ago on the basis of what she was told by that instructor's student, so it appears they'll not only accept but actually require a QA based on second-hand knowledge. My partner had assumed, too, that she would have to have witnessed the incident, so she just encouraged the student to put in a complaint. PADI's stance then was that having an incident described to you by someone who was involved or witnessed it makes you responsible for initiating a QA.

I'd agree that probably doesn't extend to "I read it on the interwebs," though...
As your partner was actually working at the shop, she would have had other information as well as some hearsay. She could have been on the lookout for further violations and started the report process on that basis. Or she could have done what I outlined above, but taking a pro-active stance alongside the student to help resolve the situation. If your partner was involved in administering first aid or counseling the student diver immediately after the incident (e.g., in the case of sexual abuse), this is also first-hand information and not just hearsay.

Not too long ago I was contacted by PADI SEAP and told to file an incident report even though I was not directly involved in the incident. It had to do with a non-diving injury aboard a boat, an incident which I didn't witness directly nor perform the first aid for, but which I did see unfold, and I did transport the victim to the hospital for emergency surgery. I think in these cases, the reports are more in the line of supporting documentation rather than the initiation of a whole Q/A process.
 
As your partner was actually working at the shop, she would have had other information as well as some hearsay. She could have been on the lookout for further violations and started the report process on that basis. Or she could have done what I outlined above, but taking a pro-active stance alongside the student to help resolve the situation. If your partner was involved in administering first aid or counseling the student diver immediately after the incident (e.g., in the case of sexual abuse), this is also first-hand information and not just hearsay.

There was nowhere near that much involvement, nor was it a serious incident involving first aid or counselling - the student came back from doing a couple of Adventure Dives, and when asked how it had gone said 'Oh, fine, but I thought I'd get to use a compass on the navigation dive...' The student didn't want to make a complaint, another instructor got sent back out with her to re-do the dive with some actual navigation involved, the original instructor got a talking-to, everyone moved on.

Eventually, mutterings about the instructor in question started to spread and somebody from another shop said he'd seen something really dangerous but didn't want to get involved. My partner contacted PADI's QA department by email and told them that, whilst the closest she had to first-hand evidence was the not-using-a-compass-for-navigation story, there were now more serious stories doing the rounds. (The shop owners had no interest in looking into it and the instructor dismissed any attempt to talk to him about it. But he was French... ). It was at that point that PADI told her she should have QA'd on the compass, and they proceeded to send QA forms to all of his former students and contacted the instructor who claimed to have witnessed a serious violation.

PADI may well have told you something completely different about starting a QA. They're a big enough organisation that it's entirely possible to ask the same question of two different people and get two very different answers. In the case I'm talking about, it probably comes down to whether one defines being told by one of the involved parties as first-hand knowledge or second-hand. Certainly, none of us 'interested instructor bystanders' in town who watched it all unfold - and there were many - expected PADI to start a full QA process on the basis of the email they were sent, but that's what happened.
 
It was at that point that PADI told her she should have QA'd on the compass, and they proceeded to send QA forms to all of his former students and contacted the instructor who claimed to have witnessed a serious violation.
This makes some sense. In another incident, I had a DM interning with me who was an absolute disaster. At one point he let slip that he thought he was doing pretty well for somebody with just 36 dives (!). I immediately phoned my regional rep who didn't require me to file an incident report but who started a whole procedure for which the Sydney office contacted all the DM students of this instructor to get feedback. (It was a case of Russians, who are generally more prone to think that the rules don't apply to them than even the French are, LOL.) I suspect that procedures change over time so that less formal mechanisms are now enough to stimulate a feedback-gathering effort, especially with the new rule that PADI will no longer process certs for divers without email addresses; also in the case of your partner, it might have been an overzealous member of QA, or one who wanted to shift the blame/work to somebody else for this guy falling through the cracks, etc.
 
I have a question for all you folks who are DM's or instructors. Perhaps I should focus more on if you are PADI "professionals". I have seen in this thread and various other threads on SB where the OP is told something to the effect of, "this is a gross violation of standards and the instructor should be reported."

My question is, can only a student of a particular instructor report them? What keeps some of the instructors on this board from reporting a fellow instructor if you could find out who the instructor is say through a PM to the OP? If what is being presented is even close to the truth, do you feel any obligation to report that person knowing what they are doing could be dangerous?

Just curious.

I would. I was assisting on a OW course and one of the students was visibly anxious and having difficulty controlling her breathing on the surface, it was in a lake so no swell or current etc the instructor kept, rather impatiently, telling her to hurry up and begin the descent which she was clearly not ready to do and the way he was talking to her only exacerbated the situation. I hung back with her on the surface and told the Instructor I would either descend with her when she was ready or take her back to shore. He was clearly irritated. Eventually she was calm enough to descend. On the second dive the same thing happened again, his reaction was more annoyed than the first dive, the poor woman got so stressed I ended up taking her back to shore. Once back to the shop I complained to the shop owner about this who in turn took it up with the Instructor. Not an official complaint to PADI but a complaint none the less. If the shop owner, who is a very stand up guy, had not taken it as seriously as he did I would have taken it further.
 
I have a question for all you folks who are DM's or instructors. . . . can only a student of a particular instructor report them? What keeps some of the instructors on this board from reporting a fellow instructor if you could find out who the instructor is say through a PM to the OP? If what is being presented is even close to the truth, do you feel any obligation to report that person knowing what they are doing could be dangerous?
Good question, and I think Quero's response is appropriate.
Quero:
. . . as PADI professional (without quotation marks around it, by the way), I can say that we are only able to report incidents if we have first-hand knowledge of them. We must have been involved directly or have witnessed the incident with our own eyes. We cannot make a report based on hearsay, and what we read on SB is hearsay, regardless of its degree of veracity.
PADI is very serious about QA, and at the same time serious about avoiding actions that are inappropriate, that based on hearsay, based on bias, etc. And, there are grey areas, where a call to PADI QM is the best approach (although, as noted, you may at times get slightly divergent answers depending on who you speak with).

We had a situation last Fall where three divers came to our shop and requested a private Deep Adventure Dive so they could finish their AOW. The situation sounded logical - they lived in the north, the local waters got cold before they finished, and they decided to visit a friend in the (warmer) South and take care of the Deep Dive at the same time. We even got an email from the Instructor documenting that they had completed four other Adventure Dives. What was interesting was that their instructor also (adamantly) demanded that we complete the Deep Dive and return documentation of that to him, so that he could issue their AOW card. OK, I guess I can see that - he had worked with them on the other four dives and wanted the certs, notwithstanding the usual practice that the Instructor who signs off 'last' submits the certification. But, the referring Instructor was so adamant - with us and with the three divers - that we called PADI, primarily to verify the OW certifications held by the three students (they had failed to bring their cards). Turns out, the students had already been issued AOW certifications by that Instructor, AND also been issued Rescue Diver certifications by that Instructor even though they (said they had) had never participated in a Rescue class, much less completed their Deep Adventure Dive. So, the shop owner called PADI to see what he / we should do. I actually do not know the final outcome (whether the shop owner filed a complaint, or just reported what we were told), but my point in relating this is to say that there are circumstances where hearsay may be involved - the students SAID they had never participated in a Rescue class, even though PADI had recorded certifications for them - and a discussion with PADI would be a reasonable step to take.
 
Turns out, the students had already been issued AOW certifications by that Instructor, AND also been issued Rescue Diver certifications by that Instructor even though they (said they had) had never participated in a Rescue class, much less completed their Deep Adventure Dive.

One would think that the students had nothing to gain by lying so I believe they told you the truth. Seems to me the instructor was looking to put a few dollars in his/her pocket the easy way. Glad you guys just didn't look the other way and at least made a call to PADI. My gut feel is most folks just turn a blind eye and don't want to get involved.
 
Turns out, the students had already been issued AOW certifications by that Instructor, AND also been issued Rescue Diver certifications by that Instructor even though they (said they had) had never participated in a Rescue class, much less completed their Deep Adventure Dive. [/COLOR]

Maybe the instructor was trying to rack up the numbers to make MI, or - God help us - get onto the CD Training Course...
 

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