Neox, Argox, Ken Clayton & Billy Mitchell Fleet talk Our World Underwater Chicago

[Akimbo]

This is the first recorded non-military use of a neon based gas mixture since Haans Keller’s infamous 1962 dive to 1,000 feet off Catalina.

That's interesting. What is the source on this information? Here is an excerpt form Christopher Swann's (ScubaBoard's @Oceanaut), The History of Oilfield Diving: An Industrial Adventure, Chapter 8, Hannes Keller and His Secret Mixtures. I understood that Keller's mixtures varied from rich (high PPO2) Trimix, HeO2, to pure O2.

Hannes Keller's 1,000' Dive

Hannes Keller's 1,000' Dive Excerpted from The History of Oilfield Diving: An Industrial Adventure by Christopher Swann (Oceanaut Press) On December 3, 1962 a Swiss mathematician named Hannes Keller reached the astonishing depth of 1,000'/305M in the open ocean off Catalina Island in...

scubaboard.com

 

[O-ring]

Thanks. I will do that.

I spoke to Ken extensively about his profile. He was a Ivy League trained chemist and told me he had the tables in front of him on his dive slate when we spoke over the phone several times. I wanted to include his actual profile in the presentation but he refused, despite me asking multiple times. He mentioned something along the lines that "as a non-chemist, you wouldn't understand the tables" which I found curious, since I have a very strong math background. Mathematics seemed relevant to the discussion more than chemistry IMO.

Plus, I really had no interest in doing a six gas, open circuit heliox dive with air deco at 220fsw and including dcompression gas switches to Argox and Neox along the way but Clayton was adamant that he didn't want others following his profile.

I spoke to a few decompression modelers that were going to attempt to re-engineer Ken's dives but they got busy with other projects before I delivered my presentation at OWU, so it never happened.

It would be fun to have his profile from those dives. I don't think anyone but Hans Keller and Ken Clayton have done recreational diving using Neox. At least, I cannot find anyone who has.

I linked to a couple of JT's profiles in my post from the Ostfriesland dive, but those aren't nearly as interesting as a six gas dive using argox and neox .

 

[sandiegoaes]

That's interesting. What is the source on this information? Here is an excerpt form Christopher Swann's (ScubaBoard's @Oceanaut), The History of Oilfield Diving: An Industrial Adventure, Chapter 8, Hannes Keller and His Secret Mixtures. I understood that Keller's mixtures varied from rich (high PPO2) Trimix, HeO2, to pure O2.

Hannes Keller's 1,000' Dive

Hannes Keller's 1,000' Dive Excerpted from The History of Oilfield Diving: An Industrial Adventure by Christopher Swann (Oceanaut Press) On December 3, 1962 a Swiss mathematician named Hannes Keller reached the astonishing depth of 1,000'/305M in the open ocean off Catalina Island in...

scubaboard.com

Ken Clayton and I discussed this multiple times prior to his passing. He had an extensive library and some source materials. I have seen it written about several times that Keller used Neox on his infamous 1,000 foot dive. I don't have the sources at my fingertips unfortunately.

I am fairly sure Ken wanted to separate himself from his peers with his dives. Using Neox easily accomplished that.

 

[sandiegoaes]

I linked to a couple of JT's profiles in my post from the Ostfriesland dive, but those aren't nearly as interesting as a six gas dive using argox and neox .

For sure!

He did several experimental dives with both gas mix and gear configurations.

I believe on the USS New Jersey, he had a set up double, back mounted tanks. One was filled with Heliox 10 and the other with Neox 10, with the isolator closed. After 10 minutes on the bottom, breathing Heliox 10, he opened the isolator to introduce neox into his mix. He essentially start decompressing while still diving the wreck on the bottom without ever ascending.

If my memory serves, he also used a deep Argox mixture at 40 feet and leaner Argox mix shallower. We spoke extensively about this as I have dove Argox once (and think I still have a headache from it). The END of the argox mix he used was around 200+ feet. He dove some insane mixes!

Ken also carried a lot of tanks on those dives. About the only thing more impressive than his dive profiles was his ability to carry tanks! He used OMS LP 121s for back tanks, two Al100s with deep deco gas and carried four aluminum 80s with this intermediate deco and travel gas. I think his tanks (empty) were almost 300 lbs alone. Crazy stuff!!!

 

[O-ring]

lol.. "ok, what we're going to do when we get to the bottom is take half a breath off the right post and then half a breath off the left post and see what happens. If something doesn't feel right I'll either try premixing by swishing the gases around in my mouth or trying 2/3 of a breath on heliox and 1/3 on neox...or maybe the other way around"

Yep, as a non-chemist I am having trouble understanding.

 

[Akimbo]

I have seen it written about several times that Keller used Neox on his infamous 1,000 foot dive.

I was too young in 1960 to see the big picture but now understand that there were significant economic incentives to make Keller and Bühlmann's mixtures seem totally revolutionary, and worth a lot of money. The offshore oil industry was just beginning to venture into deeper water where the lack of effective diver intervention was a show-stopper. I have heard of what boiled down to misinformation campaigns to mystify these mixtures and formulas.

Christopher Swan's article is listed as a reference on Hannes Keller's Wikipedia page. You might consider contacting Chris through his Website Oceanaut Press to get more information on this for your presentation.

 

[sandiegoaes]

I was too young in 1960 to see the big picture but now understand that there were significant economic incentives to make Keller and Bühlmann's mixtures seem totally revolutionary, and worth a lot of money. The offshore oil industry was just beginning to venture into deeper water where the lack of effective diver intervention was a show-stopper. I have heard of what boiled down to misinformation campaigns to mystify these mixtures and formulas.

Christopher Swan's article is listed as a reference on Hannes Keller's Wikipedia page. You might consider contacting Chris through his Website Oceanaut Press to get more information on this for your presentation.

Thanks for the info. I actually gave this presentation about five years ago. If I get an invite to give it again, I will make sure to update it accordingly.

 

[RedPoppita]

I have it somewhere. I will dig to see what I can find. I will send it to you directly or can post it here if the Mods will allow it.

Ooh, would really appreciate if you could send me anything you have on diving with neox. Asides from the cost challenges, I've heard anecdotally that it is a difficult gas to breath due to it's density.

 

[Akimbo]

I will send it to you directly or can post it here if the Mods will allow it.

Members can post documents that are not copyrighted, they own the copyright, or the copyright holder grants permission to distribute.

 

[sandiegoaes]

I found my presentation. I will post it in the technical diving forum.