Negative entry vs Using a downline

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't want to argue...and I will only respond this time because I don't think I made one aspect of the drift drop on a wreck clear....
If I am being dropped on the 100 foot deep Castor in mild current, or the 225 foot deep Skycliff in huge current, the issue of whether I have 100 foot vis, or 5 foot vis, will not effect my success or failure in hitting the wreck in 9 out of ten approaches.....in 9 out of ten approaches, all I do is swim down straight to the bottom--there is NO navigating, and there is no necessary familiarity with an "approach path" to the wreck--9 our of ten times...or maybe even 95 out of 100 times....the norm is that I swim to the bottom, and then all of a sudden, the wreck is coming at me....If the current is screaming, the wreck comes at me fast. You are looking for this--expecting this, so if the vis is 5 feet, and the current is screaming, you will probably want to either belly to the bottom out of current, or, get up high enough so that you wont impact into the side of the wreck--so in the low vis conditons, local knowledge would be a value, to avoid a hard impact.
But if one of our Captains had time perfecting drops on this UK wreck you speak of, I don't see the difference between low vis and big or small current here, versus low vis and big or small current where you are in the UK. Beyond current or multiple currents the captain needs to figure vectors for, what else does the captain need to know? For us as divers--we just swim straight down--the shipwreck comes to us.

... only works in low-vis if the current's predictable. Sorry Dan, if you tried that here you'd spend more time wandering around in the mud wondering where you were than you'd spend on the wrecks ... and may end up ascending miles from where the boat expects you to. Ain't interested in an argument ... maybe that technique works well for you ... but in my experience, that would be an extremely risky and stupid way to dive a deep wreck in the environment I'm used to diving in.

Maybe someday you'll come to realize that not all environments are exactly like south Florida. Maybe not. Wouldn't really care if you'd quit using words like "deficient" and "lazy" to describe that which you clearly do not understand.

Tell ya what ... we've got a good-sized and pretty well organized DIR community up here. Come dive with them sometime. Maybe once you've experienced our conditions you might understand why your methods won't work here.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[flots am]

An advanced diver should not be forced to jump in with a bouyant BC..the idea is to go right down, not to float on the surface like a duck, and allow whatever current there is to blow you off the desired drop site.

This is another one of those "minor changes" that turns a mistake into a close brush with death.

A negative entry gives no second chances for anybody who discovers that their air is off.

Yes, I know this isn't supposed to happen, but it does.

 

[maniago]

This is another one of those "minor changes" that turns a mistake into a close brush with death.

A negative entry gives no second chances for anybody who discovers that their air is off.

Yes, I know this isn't supposed to happen, but it does.

Maybe I'm being simplistic, but a couple of good breaths off my reg before I roll off is the last item on my departure checklist. Is it not for everyone?

 

[nimoh]

This is another one of those "minor changes" that turns a mistake into a close brush with death.

A negative entry gives no second chances for anybody who discovers that their air is off.

Yes, I know this isn't supposed to happen, but it does.

I think the type of diver Dan is talking about would be doing a proper pre-dive check, would be able to turn their own gas on while swimming, and would both be aware of their buddies and able to assist with problems. In other words, I don't think he is talking about AOW divers with 30 dives.

I'm not convinced that a hot drop is the way to go for all situations, but I think the risk is just that you may miss the wreck and ruin the dive. In some environments this risk is minimal with a good captain (as in Dan's experience), in other environments I could see this being too big of a risk to bother with a hot drop.

 

[boulderjohn]

I think the type of diver Dan is talking about would be doing a proper pre-dive check, would be able to turn their own gas on while swimming, and would both be aware of their buddies and able to assist with problems. In other words, I don't think he is talking about AOW divers with 30 dives.

I remember reading a story about a decade ago, I believe it was in the DAN magazine, but I could be wrong. It was about a highly experienced tech diver who did a negative entry with doubles. After his body was found, no one was able to explain why he was unable to turn his air on. He should have had that ability, given that level of experience.

 

[flots am]

Maybe I'm being simplistic, but a couple of good breaths off my reg before I roll off is the last item on my departure checklist. Is it not for everyone?

Probably not. My reg is good for a couple of breaths even when the tank is off.

This doesn't mean that a pre-dive check wouldn't have caught it, but that very few divers actually do an effective one.

 

[maniago]

I remember reading a story about a decade ago, I believe it was in the DAN magazine, but I could be wrong. It was about a highly experienced tech diver who did a negative entry with doubles. After his body was found, no one was able to explain why he was unable to turn his air on. He should have had that ability, given that level of experience.

20k hr pilots crash their airplanes in clear skies; 25yr truckers jack-knife; life long farmers get eaten by their combines. $hit just happens to even the best people.

 

[nimoh]

I remember reading a story about a decade ago, I believe it was in the DAN magazine, but I could be wrong. It was about a highly experienced tech diver who did a negative entry with doubles. After his body was found, no one was able to explain why he was unable to turn his air on. He should have had that ability, given that level of experience.

well, given that you are referring to a DAN article and I have nothing but speculation, I'll stand corrected

 

[maniago]

Probably not. My reg is good for a couple of breaths even when the tank is off.

This doesn't mean that a pre-dive check wouldn't have caught it, but that very few divers actually do an effective one.

I guess its not taught to look at your SPG when you take the check breaths to see if the pressure goes down....in 2 breaths you'll see it if the tank is closed.

 

[uncfnp]

I do wonder how much of the dive style is tradition verses conditions driven for any particular region.

But Dan's right that the drops in Florida are more about the Captain then the diver. As long as the diver can drop quickly the Captain does the rest. I remember one negative entry drop on Zion Train with Capt Van on Narcosis. It was a night dive with a group of researches and photographers (extensive large camera gear) and enough current you had to drop belly to sand and dig in or get behind a ledge or the wreck. It was an incredible site when the wreck came up out of the dark. Two divers missed the wreck. Van picked them up and redropped them. Next dive he sent the 2 buddy teams with a DM further up current than the main group. They hit the second wreck on the first try.