Negative entry vs Using a downline

[TSandM]

If we let 2 - 3 feet of viz, particularly in the shallows, deter us from diving, nobody would dive Puget Sound in the summertime

 

[jadairiii]

View attachment 181655

Horse collar BC's, Uggg! Was trained with a White Stag in '75 and used a US Divers for one year when I first started diving. Hated the thing, bought a Scubapro BCP then an At Pac about 2 years later, but never used anything but a wing BC from 77 on. Could never figure why anyone would ever dive a horse collar bc. But to each his own I guess.

 

[undrwater]

If we let 2 - 3 feet of viz, particularly in the shallows, deter us from diving, nobody would dive Puget Sound in the summertime

We're not talking about low vis water that doesn't move! ;-)

Dan, your writing style is...interesting. Sometimes provocative but generally useful. I always enjoy the stories and history you bring to the posts. I'm glad you're here.

 

[DaleC]

Oh, I think the one thing that is constant about the Howe Sound is its water movement :O

The horse collar was around many years before the wing and is the basic design of ALL life preservers PFD's. It was not intended to be used at depth but as surface flotation. As such it is better than a wing or jacket because it will float an unconscious diver face up, rather than face down. I do many dives without a BC but if I am diving where current may sweep me into the Howe Sound or Strait of juan de fuca (next stop Japan), I err on the side of floatation. Unlike some, I have no magical boat following me around to pick me up.

I don't know where J dives but I see Dan dives in Fl. No offense, but I could dive with a tank tied to a string in those conditions. Try doing a no BC no DS thick wetsuit dive up here with no means of buoyancy control. Three weeks ago I hit 37.F You will either be negative at the start, positive at the end, neutral shallow, heavy at depth etc... The compression of the modern wetsuit makes things awkward - though I have lucked out with a Pinnacle Polar 7/5 semi dry using merino wool that offers almost neutral buoyancy.

It's all conditional upon environment, task and training - one size does not fit all - which is the recurring theme of this thread

Drysuit - Horse collar - DIY Al BP.

[video=youtube;Ex7DPdcQA-E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex7DPdcQA-E[/video]

Drysuit - no BC - abs BP - army ruckpack frame

[video=youtube;Gw6dEME6dWA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw6dEME6dWA[/video]

No BC, no DS - abs BP

[video=youtube;EJZA1WYQbdI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJZA1WYQbdI[/video]

Tank tied with a string (well almost)

[video=youtube;YGp5R-4m3Rw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGp5R-4m3Rw[/video]

 

[danvolker]

Oh, I think the one thing that is constant about the Howe Sound is its water movement :O

The horse collar was around many years before the wing and is the basic design of ALL life preservers PFD's. It was not intended to be used at depth but as surface flotation. As such it is better than a wing or jacket because it will float an unconscious diver face up, rather than face down. I do many dives without a BC but if I am diving where current may sweep me into the Howe Sound or Strait of juan de fuca (next stop Japan), I err on the side of floatation. Unlike some, I have no magical boat following me around to pick me up.

I don't know where J dives but I see Dan dives in Fl. No offense, but I could dive with a tank tied to a string in those conditions. Try doing a no BC no DS thick wetsuit dive up here with no means of buoyancy control. Three weeks ago I hit 37.F You will either be negative at the start, positive at the end, neutral shallow, heavy at depth etc... The compression of the modern wetsuit makes things awkward - though I have lucked out with a Pinnacle Polar 7/5 semi dry using merino wool that offers almost neutral buoyancy.

It's all conditional upon environment, task and training - one size does not fit all - which is the recurring theme of this thread

Drysuit - Horse collar - DIY Al BP.

[video=youtube;Ex7DPdcQA-E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex7DPdcQA-E[/video]

Drysuit - no BC - abs BP - army ruckpack frame

[video=youtube;Gw6dEME6dWA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw6dEME6dWA[/video]

No BC, no DS - abs BP

[video=youtube;EJZA1WYQbdI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJZA1WYQbdI[/video]

Tank tied with a string (well almost)

[video=youtube;YGp5R-4m3Rw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGp5R-4m3Rw[/video]

Dale, no offense taken, and none meant...but I have done under ice dives in Lake Erie.....and as to those or your 37 degrees dives.... it would be my choice that the snow skiing was looking really good, and Variety in what we do, is the spice of life....so I'd be skiing given that option

And one of the awesome things we did have in the 70's was to be allowed to dive on a 72 with j valve, no gauges, and with a rope harness--the absolute minimalism...when diving was so simple and fun....if we tried to pull that today, between the boat captains getting ancey, and the instructors on the boat all convinced we were making ourselves a bad role model...it takes too much of the fun out of it..... I can just imagine the look or horror on some of my GUE friends

 

[T.C.]

The only person in this thread who has said anything about DIR divers being the only ones good enough to use scooters is YOU.

I never said "I'm so great and only DIR divers can match me" or anything even remotely close to it.

This is the attitude you project. Accept it or not; but you do.

My goodness, I wonder where all the "chest-thumping" DIR divers are?

You know the answer to this.

About once a month some of my buddies (non-GUE) and I dive with a group of GUE divers. I have never seen any arrogant or boasting by any of the divers. They are always friendly and helpful. GUE does not use the term DIR. Forget about the equipment the best thing about getting a GUE buddy is you know that they stay by you. It is not like a SAME OCEAN SAME DAY buddies you get as an insta-buddy.

I'm not confusing DIR with GUE. There's a difference, and from what I learned (limited as it is) GUE stresses things that are not addressed in DIR.

Remember what I said about the truely elite who do not brag or ridicule; who are just the quiet professionals?

I believe that this is the reason GUE does not have the same rep that DIR has acquired.

I believe the statements that have been made are not that nobody but us can dive scooters. It's that one particular poster appears to be making statements about scooters that he doesn't have the experience to make (and in fact, they aren't making a lot of sense).

First, yes, that statement was made by jadairii:

Virtually all non-DIR gear would have to be substantially altered to comfortably dive a scooter, making a simple scooter dive into a 4 day course.

Basically, you can't dive a scooter with non-DIR gear, and a non-DIR diver can't handle one without four days of training.


My statement is simple. The use of scooters is not limited by gear to just BP/W divers. There isn't anything special about them, or the DIR divers that allows them to use scooters.

I give an example; military divers; who use even higher powered scooters, yet, from what I'm told, do not dive BP/W setups.

First, the ship sits on 135 to the sand, and the top of the wheel house with the biggest nudibranch assortment is at about 95 or 100 feet

Still only going to hit one or two of your four sites per dive. Same as if I'd be swimming. Then you also have to deal with the scooter while attempting to get a good picture.

But this is just one small part of exploration type diving....maybe what you are really saying is that the idea of exploration diving sickens you...and this makes DIR an abomination to you ????

Uh. No. Not even close to what I said.


That said; my response is complete. I don't want to detract from the discussion that is ongoing.

For high current, a diver is not strong enough to pull down the line without extreme difficulty--and when it is really fast, a diver is incapable of pulling down the line--this is an issue that will not change between Florida, UK, Asia, or anywhere else.

I'm not sure what diving you do, but going down or up a line in current is not that difficult. And the only muscles getting tired are your fingers. You can rest that by hooking your elbow around the line and wrapping a leg for stability.

Even with my long hose, a snorkel is a tiny nuisance easily dealt with if I need to donate the long hose. On a dive like you are suggesting, the chances of needing to donate would be like one in a thousand with any group of friends I would be with....but like I said, the snorkel is not going to change the donation more than about .08 of one second. A compromise I can live with

You use a snorkel?!? George must be screaming now...

Damnit...there goes another 30 points...

 

[DaleC]

That's one of the few perks of Canadian diving (excluding Quebec). The longest coastline in the world and most of it uninhabited.The only ones looking askance are the seals. BTW, have you ever blown a seal on a dive?


Tangent in 3.. 2.. 1.. Jonline

 

[jadairiii]

...As such it is better than a wing or jacket because it will float an unconscious diver face up, rather than face down.

I have never seen, or known of, an unconscious diver that is able to inflate a wing or a horse collar BC.

---------- Post added April 12th, 2014 at 03:25 PM ----------

...BTW, have you ever blown a seal on a dive?

it's just ice cream.....

 

[T.C.]

I have never seen, or known of, an unconscious diver that is able to inflate a wing or a horse collar BC.

Sure they can. You just have to get one of the devices. I think Dr. Kevorkian sells them.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/re...rguard-looks-skeptics-bloggers-reporters.html

BTW, have you ever blown a seal on a dive?

Sorry, I don't dive around seals.

 

[jadairiii]

.....Basically, you can't dive a scooter with non-DIR gear, and a non-DIR diver can't handle one without four days of training.

You can use a scooter in just about any kind of gear configuration. But I will guarantee you that if you try to do a long ocean scooter dive while lobstering (with a suex/halcyon/SS/genesis scooter) you will quickly see the benefits of a back-plate/wing set up.