Need instructor to work on buoyancy and trim

[The Chairman]

But I keep trying.

That's the key: keep trying. The more you commit to the frog kick, the more natural it becomes.

The ideal frog kick is delivered via the bottom of your toes. Think of it as a bio-feedback mechanism. You should be able to feel it right there on the bottom of your toes when you get it right. Not the side. Not the top. Just the bottom of your toes.

I'm so glad to hear someone (with authority) say the Buddha hover is a scam!

Authority? Me? Bwahahahahaha! I am as antidisestablishmentarianist as they come. I'm usually the guy pointing out that the King has no clothes. I don't entertain any delusions of grandeur, but if I can help you relax and stop white knuckle diving, I'm OK with that.

Once you are comfortable hovering horizontally at a depth in the pool and can change your depth and then hover (no forward propulsion) there,
.. really, your buoancy is quite good.

I don't want to simply be contentious, but this is a flawed approach. Anyone with a bit of patience can learn to hover. I can do that on my head, upside down or (shudder) even the Buddha position. Trim has to be corrected first. If not, then you'll stop being neutral with your first kick. Here's a little something I wrote on the subject: Master Neutral Buoyancy: The Importance of Horizontal Trim (Simple Vector Physics) - ScubaBoard Getting yourself horizontal is the very foundation of true neutral buoyancy.

since you are relatively close to @Trace Malinowski I would suggest taking a class with him.

Indeed. I would like to take a class from @Trace Malinowski at some time. He's the real deal.

I lay in bed on my stomach and practice, what is essentially making my feet "clap".

You don't have to be on your back to play with the frog kick. You can do it sitting in a chair, on the back of a truck, on the end of a dock or anywhere your feet can dangle a bit. You're trying to draw little circles with your feet that end with the bottoms of your feet pointing inward. Clockwise for the right and Counter Clockwise for the left. Work on that calf and ankle motion first and leave the thigh and buttocks for the water. This way, you can work on each leg individually until you get that motion... but the true magic is feeling it in the bottom of your toes.

 

[Dogbowl]

I learned (the hard way, that is, by myself), that no matter how good my trim and buoyancy are in a pool, it all goes to crap when I go into open water. For me, the main reason is change in salinity, causing the need for a change in weighting and weight distribution. I learned that I needed to have the exact same equipment in the exact same environment to dial in my trim and buoyancy. Current is also a variable that messes with me.

My mistake...doing Peak Performance Buoyancy in the fresh waters of Tobermory. (Ok, maybe not a mistake but just not ideal since I rarely dive in that environment.) Totally different equipment and weighting. Other than the theoretical bits, all that I accomplished did not translate to the salty ocean. I felt like I was starting all over again.

Trying to get my butt “up” when weighting is incorrect was futile. First, I had to figure the least weight I needed to comfortably hold a safety stop (such as in Cozumel). Then, I had to determine where the weight had to be distributed to enable a flatter profile.

If there is a mooring line to grab a hold of during my safety stop (such as in Cayman) or a hang bar (such as on some liveaboards), I wonder if I can reduce several pounds of weight. An experiment for next trip!

 

[Schwob]

Trim has to be corrected first.

No contest to that. Except I thought I had it covered in what I wrote.
If you re-read my post which you quoted in your reply, you do discover so that I did nit speak about "hovering" but about hovering horizontally all along and elswere in my rant to good horizontal trim.
I aware that it does not necessarily describe "good trim" to a T. But I think that simple and straight forward is helpful for step 1 or 2...

 

[Schwob]

You don't have to be on your back to play with the frog kick. You can do it sitting in a chair, on the back of a truck, on the end of a dock or anywhere your feet can dangle a bit. You're trying to draw little circles with your feet that end with the bottoms of your feet pointing inward. Clockwise for the right and Counter Clockwise for the left. Work on that calf and ankle motion first and leave the thigh and buttocks for the water. This way, you can work on each leg individually until you get that motion... but the true magic is feeling it in the bottom of your toes.

^^^^
I like that!

 

[The Chairman]

My mistake...doing Peak Performance Buoyancy

The mistake was that your instructor didn't require this skill in your OW class. I can teach a similar class through SDI, but I refuse to because I think this is remedial in nature. It's the most important skill you should come away with from your OW class. Other than as a refresher from being out of the water too long, I would hope my students would never feel the need to take such a course. My Trim, Buoyancy and Propulsion class is a workshop and does not result in a card because of this belief.

 

[Dogbowl]

The mistake was that your instructor didn't require this skill in your OW class. I can teach a similar class through SDI, but I refuse to because I think this is remedial in nature. It's the most important skill you should come away with from your OW class. Other than as a refresher from being out of the water too long, I would hope my students would never feel the need to take such a course.

Very true. I did my OW class all wrong. If there's a wrong way to approach it, I did that. I "chose" to do my OW class locally as a referral course, then did 2 check-out dives in Roatan, then the remaining 2 on Grand Cayman, off a cruise ship. It worked at that moment, but now looking back, it's probably the worst way to get certified. No continuity of instructor, no feeling of the need by any of the instructors to teach good skills. Just a need to get it all done and check all the boxes before I have to get back on the ship!

Next SB Invasion or Surge, I'm signing up and doing my AOW again with @The Chairman . I need the extra practice.

 

[The Chairman]

No contest to that. Except I thought I had it covered in what I wrote.

Almost. Trim is best mastered while swimming and not as a static balancing act. You have to be comfortable in the water first, and then you can test your static trim and weighting. The best way to do that is to hover motionless near the bottom (6 inches or so), close your eyes and count to 10. Where are you at? Now go for 20, then 30, 60 and more. Don't fight it: just relax and see where you are. Now adjust weights accordingly and go swim some more before you try it again. Setting up a gopro to video your efforts will expedite the process.

Here's a discovery exercise: test to see how your trim changes as you pull your legs in and out. My heels often touch the bottom of my tanks and that's where I feel "in the pocket". If I extend my legs, my head comes right up. But then, I don't wear neoprene, so your experience might be way different. You won't know until you experiment, but I use the leverage of the weight in legs to my advantage.

Here's another discovery exercise. take your BC off in the pool and try to get it neutral and then horizontal in the pool without you. Stay shallow and don't hurt yourself. It's tougher than you think.

 

[Kimela]

I am getting so much from this discussion. Thanks to the OP and the community for this thread!

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Indeed. I would like to take a class from @Trace Malinowski at some time. He's the real deal.

Aw, shucks. Pete, I have a cavern through full cave class around February 24th in High Springs you are welcome to audit.

 

[The Chairman]

Aw, shucks. Pete, I have a cavern through full cave class around February 24th in High Springs you are welcome to audit.

Send me details! Side or back mount?