Need an uw camera "expert"...?

[cicopo]

Whenever I'm thinking about purchasing another camera I download & learn the manual. Then I know if I think it's able to do the things I need it too. At the same time I research what owners think of it on my photography forums. If I buy it I've got a head start on how to use it once I get it home & once the battery is charged up I start experimenting with the settings & user adjustable settings like contrast, sharpening, highlight cut off warnings etc. In my case I shoot Canon gear, and their menus & controls are pretty similar across most of their cameras / bodies which cuts down on the learning curve after a few upgrades. Taking the time to learn a camera usually pays off, especially if you're going to put in a housing that hides all those tiny icons beside the buttons & switches.

 

[kixy1]

Ok, well I TRIED to keep my non-Coz thread off in PM land, but once again I see ya’ll will have none of it.

Hey Brules, thanks for jumping right in with the lashing, good to get that out of the way I guess. Although I share your frustrations with the photog jerks, I’ve seen many a photo from folks using far less than bank-busting setups that were pretty dang spectacular, and well, everyone has to start somewhere... If I promise not to bring my brand new camera on the boat, can I have one? pleeeeeze? As for the other behaviors you and Gdog mention well, just wouldn’t happen.

So here’s the deal (most of what I posted over in the photog forum, with no answers ):

History: I've never been much interested in taking on the burden of UW photography as I've always been lucky to have one of your kind along for the ride, and I've just mooched photos (yes, I've ALWAYS given credit!). However, times have changed and I’m ready to start documenting my dives myself. Since I’m going to be retiring down there, everyone is constantly asking me about the place, both above and below. I’d like to be able to provide something.

About Me: I've been diving for a while, and fully admit I’m a lazy diver, maybe with a touch of ADD. I like to go slow, really look around, and have fun. I LOVE diving, but I do get distracted, (what a lovely coral formation, I should take a photo. Oh look! a gobi, I must swim over there and play... get the idea?) Buoyancy won't be the biggest problem here, remembering I have the friggin camera will be. Now, before you go all “you don’t have the dedication it takes and this is all just going to be a disaster”, I HAVE thought this through, and I’m ready to do it. THANK YOU BubbleTrubble, I think you understood perfectly!

I’m obviously looking for something fairly simple, entry level. I’ll probably never be GOOD at this, but I’d like others to be able to tell if it’s a photo of a fish or an eel. I realize it’s 95% the photographer, 5% the camera, and unfortunately, I'll actually need to take a photo of a FISH for this all to work out, but well, how bout some support here folks?

Requirements: I take at least a couple of warm water trips a year and I think that's where I'll do most of my photo taking, but I live in Puget Sound. This is where I'll need to practice and here, it’s not only f’n cold, it's DARK. Even darker under the water. So I'll need light. Don't forget that here, I'm in a drysuit with thick stay-puf marshmallow man gloves. They probably don't make a camera with Fisher-Price style buttons, right? oh well.

I've found some used Sea & Sea setups for sale, but how difficult are they to use? Are they really for beginners, or will I be overwhelmed?

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/classifieds-photography/400699-sea-sea-dx-1g-camera-package.html

I researched the Gopro, but I’m really more interested in photos rather than video. I've also seen some used canon cameras with Ikelite housings, and read good things?

Budget: I really want to stay around $500, but I'm thinking I'm probably high. How bout $700? Ok, $800.


Thanks for your help!

 

[darook]

Having a strobe matters more than the camera IMHO. Without sufficient light everything is blue. I shoot a DSLR but that is because I like shooting it above water as well. If you want to document your dives your don't need that. The package you show looks sufficient for your goals though I would add a strobe. I am fond of the Inon S2000s but any strobe is better than none. Cozumel's great visibility, reef formations, and the pace of action makes it ideal for wide angle particularly when doing the boat dives. Shore diving is for macro. Getting a system that allows for both will let you capture the whole experience. A micro 4/3 camera may be interesting but may be hard to fit in your budget. You may have some luck with Canon G10s or later in the used market.

Best of luck with your search and please let us see your pictures!

 

[Tigerman]

Hmm, that might explain my difficulties...



I missed half a dive floating along trying to find "underwater" mode..... But come on, read the manual? Really? That seems excessive...... (And I ain't stopping for directions either....)

Are you f***ing crazy?? READING THE MANUAL?? That should go in the trash with packaging!

Seriously though, what you IMO should look for in a "cheap" UW setup is;
RAW photo mode (Improves your editing options a lot).
Decent sized picture sensor (physical size, not megapixels).
The OPTION to use strobes. If you dive clear, sunny locations you can get away without it shooting RAW. If the conditions are dark and murky, you might have to have strobes.
Popular cameras here on SB is i.e. the Canon G-series and the S95 as well as some Nikon cameras.

What I would NOT do is take the smallest, cheapest, highest mpx P&S you can find at your electronics supermarket. They are small because their sensor is small and they have high mpx counts as people who dont know better think thats brilliant, when infact the combination of small sensor and high mpx count is a serious indicator of lots of picture noise, especially in challenging conditions like under water.

Many say you HAVE to have strobes cause the pictures will be blue without it, but in my experience thats highly dependant on the dive sites and how you whitebalance your photos (Which can be done easilly and QUICK in post-processing software, especially if you shoot RAW)


Edit: http://www.scubaboard.com/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=5574 is examples of pictures thats all shot with a cheap setup - Canon G7 (few years old now), Canon OEM housing, no strobes. White balanced with PS Lightroom. Depths down to 25ish meters in that particular album.

 

[knowone]

Pah!
Could never take a photo to save myself halemano's sig

 

[Brules]

I don't shoot BTW. And sorry for the lashing, I just wanted to make sure you understood that a camera can affect EVERYONE on the dive......and there is nothing worse than 6 other divers being made to learn along with you lol.

Even with extremely experienced divers with HUNDREDS of dives, putting a camera in their hand seems to suck the scuba skill right out of them and turn them into an instant 1st timer with his snorkel still attached.



Good luck with it.....and let me know when you plan to dive so I can get on a different boat!

 

[DevonDiver]

To me - unless you are a good above water photog - you wont be a good under water photographer.

The only 'above-water' photos I ever take are of my drunk friends.... and yet.... Nudibranch in the Philippines - Sea Slug Underwater PhotographyScuba Tech Philippines

I've met lots of good (great) above-water photographers that struggle with underwater photography because of their core dive skills and lack of environment specific photography knowledge. You can learn to be a good underwater photographer from scratch - many of the same core photographic rules apply (i.e. composition), but a relatively experienced diver will already have an appreciation of environmental specifics (effects on light at distance/depth, subject behaviour, particulate matter in the water).

I'd rather teach a good diver how to photograph, than a good photographer how to dive... I know who'll get the best results first.

Plus unless you are going to spend a LOT of money, you will have a hard time getting good pics.

Utter rubbish.

I take my pics with an old, old Sony T-20 in OEM housing. It was free, because I found it (it lived for 5 months in the sand at 40m depth). Any modern point-and-shoot camera, in an appropriate OEM housing, is going to take nice pictures for the purposes of a non-professional photographer.



Practice makes perfect and if you learn the capabilities of your camera, you can work within those limitations to take appropriate photos of a good quality.

Using my humble camera, I've had photos published in magazines and entered in amateur-level photography competitions. So blaming the camera for the results really is non-starter.

This photo was published in a UK dive magazine. Taken with an Oly SP-350, flash was my hand-held torch... in British water, low viz, on a wreck dive, in current:




This photo of mine (at higher res/image size) is currently short-listed for 'Dive' magazine's monthly open competition. Again, it was taken with my DSC-T20; 8mp, auto-white balance only, no underwater modes, internal flash only, jpeg format only. It was also taken with a group of other divers in tow, in 8m viz, at 50ft depth...



Excuses.... none.

Plus.....unless you are experienced at shooting in current (as I assume this relates to taking said camera to Cozumel?), you will have a hell of a time shooting anything as you go by in the current. Trying to stop to set up pics causes you to grab stuff, slow down the group, seperate the group, split the group, and generally piss off the rest of the group.

The same problems would effect a professional photographer using state-of-the-art equipment. The choice of dive operator is important for the eager photographer, as cattle-boat diving is far from ideal. Just pick a good dive operator and you won't have a problem. Hardly a reason to deter people from venturing into underwater photography as an enjoyable and productive diving interest.

The same is true for shooting in current, or low viz, or whatever... that's a matter of core diving skills. I firmly believe that using a camera tends to encourage more development of critical diving skills, such as buoyancy, weighting, trim and overall control in the water.

The same can't be said for dive safety though. Using a camera adds task loading, which tends to also decrease overall situational awareness (depth, time, NDL, gas and buddy awareness). One of the critical lessons for a new underwater photographer is to maintain situational awareness whilst otherwise pre-occupied with taking photographs. It's easy to get so focused on the camera that you lose track of other critical aspects of the dive. Use the buddy system effectively - and have your buddy act as a subject spotter and also a 'back-up brain' to maintain overall awareness. Understand your limitations - if you are a relatively inexperienced diver who hasn't ingrained core dive skills, then you must anticipate that you could lose track of things when otherwise task loaded. Take a pause after each group of shots to re-focus on the dive itself.

Novice photographer + low end camera + current = bad pics and irritating the rest of the group IMHO.

Bad divers are bad divers. I'd class impatient, demanding divers who have no tolerance for those who are still learning, in the same category.

Pick the right dive operator, with the right DM, at the right dive sites... and there's no problem.

Better advice would be to say; When practising with your new camera, stick to shallow sites with undemanding conditions, with a well-motivated dive operation that will cater for your needs - so that you can concentrate on photographing choice subjects at your leisure, without placing undue stress upon your basic dive skills.

The relative cost and complexity of the camera used is, again, irrelevant as advice.

In many ways, a basic point-and-shoot camera in manufacturer housing is the best choice for a novice underwater photographer. It allows the diver to develop their photography by concentrating on the non-technical critical attributes needed (buoyancy, approach, control, understanding subject behaviour etc) without overwhelming them with technical concerns needed for the camera.

With decent dive skills and a bit of practice, it's easy to create some images that you'd be proud to distribute on Facebook or hang on your wall at home. They might not have the resolution to submit as paid work, but really.. that's a whole different level.

In summary, 10 tips:

1. Dive skill is more critical than photo skill for taking good photos.
2. Modern generation point-and-shoot, in manufacturer housing, is sufficient for really nice photos.
3. Understand the limits of your camera and work within them.
4. Dive the right sites to allow you to take easy photos, without stress from the water conditions.
5. Choose the right dive operation, who will understand your needs as an underwater photographer.
6. Choose your subjects wisely - a great photograph of a small, inactive critter is better than a blue blur from a passing fish.
7. Maximise your camera's capabilities by diving shallow, in good light and clear water.
8. Taking good photos underwater involves a lot of practice.
9. Divers should exhibit patience and understanding when other divers are still establishing new skills.
10. Don't forget your safety and situational awareness when task loaded with the camera.

 

[Tigerman]

Sorry Brules, but BS!
At worst your buddy will have to live with you being slow..

 

[cicopo]

I'll add another variable into the discussion & it relates to strobes, which can be expensive. Manufacturer housings rarely consider letting you add a strobe in any way other than by using a fiber optic cable to fire it. That means that if & when you decide to add a strobe you'll need to either use something commercially available or be creative in making an adapter. It also can mean, depending on how much the strobe costs & what it's controls allow re adjusting light output that you may need to shoot in full manual mode, making adjustments quickly on the fly. (I'm in that boat). Housings from Ikelite & I'm sure other specialty manufacturers allow linking strobes to the camera via wiring, giving the camera & flash a means of communicating to get a better exposure in changing conditions. I personally shoot a Canon G9 with 2 strobes that only fire at full power, and if I were starting from scratch now I wouldn't go that route again (the strobes). I did make my own adapter & it works perfectly but I'd much rather have a more expensive single strobe with variable light output.

The fiber optic cables plug into the 2 "eyes"



And the whole thing looks like this & can be a handful when in strong currents.



Think about the camera & housing as part of a system which you may want to expand later. Also as pointed out sensor size is more important than megapixels.

 

[fishi]

kixy1,
I also disagree with Brules. Underwater photography can be as simple as point and shoot, if you want it to be. Buying a simple camera can reduce the learning curve to just fooling around with it on land.

I bought my Nikon cool pix 4200 used on ebay for $75. I see you can get them now for as Little as $30. The Nikon underwater housing that goes with it is $250 new. I don't have a strobe, just the cameras flash. That keeps things simple and compact. The images are good enough for what i'm doing with it, and it's pretty simple to use.