need advice on swimming and bouancy

[Upwelling]

Can anyone give me advice on swimming neutrally bouyant? I've done the weight check and I'm sure that the weights aren't the issue. It's something I'm doing wrong. When I'm trying to swim using only my legs I tend to feel like I'm starting to drift upwards involuntarily and then I instictively start using my hands to try to stop myself from ascending, which obviously doesn't help. I have a lot of trouble maintaining control when swimming at a diagonal, also. I try to force myself not to use hands when swimming but it's hard for some reason. Has anyone else had these problems?

 

[Rick Murchison]

When swimming with fins, pitch (rotation of the longitudinal axis up and down) can be controlled with posture. If you arch your back, your head will rise; if you bend a bit at the waist, your head will go down. With proper weighting and trim, pitch should remain constant when swimming in a comfortable posture.
Rick

 

[DIR Tec Diver]

Your legs control the pitch. Yes you should be horizontal with your back arched and head up. If you feel soreness in your lower back after practicing this, you are doing it right.

With proper trim, if you extend your legs out, you will rise up, if you bend your legs back towards your head, you will go head down. Think of a see saw on a playground. Pick a side and say that is your head. then think of what happens to the head when the other side is lifted up or down. This is why some people think they would need ankle weights. Absolutely not true, they just don't have their feet in the proper position.

To establish proper trim and buoyancy, you need to get the proper balance. It sounds lke to me you are swimming with your legs fully extended. This is not a very efficient or effective way to swim becuase you are tipping the balance backwards. Try to bend your legs at the knees so that they are above the torso, but your body is completely horizontal in the water. Now practice the kicking.

 

[Upwelling]

This sounds like great advice....but what is "trim"?

 

[neil]

DIR Tec Diver once bubbled...
Your legs control the pitch. Yes you should be horizontal with your back arched and head up. If you feel soreness in your lower back after practicing this, you are doing it right.

With proper trim, if you extend your legs out, you will rise up, if you bend your legs back towards your head, you will go head down. Think of a see saw on a playground. Pick a side and say that is your head. then think of what happens to the head when the other side is lifted up or down. This is why some people think they would need ankle weights. Absolutely not true, they just don't have their feet in the proper position.
To establish proper trim and buoyancy, you need to get the proper balance. It sounds lke to me you are swimming with your legs fully extended. This is not a very efficient or effective way to swim becuase you are tipping the balance backwards. Try to bend your legs at the knees so that they are above the torso, but your body is completely horizontal in the water. Now practice the kicking.

I disagree in part.
Proper trim is proper trim. If you want to flutter kick, proper trim for you may very well be with your legs extended. Not everyone frog kicks. I find it difficult to maintain trim with my legs extended, but I've seen plenty of divers who can. As long as they can truly maintain trim I don't see why that is more or less efficient than the position you suggest.

Neil

 

[Rick Murchison]

junko once bubbled...
This sounds like great advice....but what is "trim"?

Proper trim is simply a state of longitudinal balance - if you are trimmed properly you will maintain a desired position (usually horizontal, belly down) when you stop swimming. That is, with no kicking with your feet or skulling with your hands, you don't rotate head up or down from what you desire.
Rick

 

[DiveRoper]

You seem to have a way with words, this is what I was trying to ask in the other forum on "Bummer on OW Certification".

 

[Charlie99]

neil once bubbled...
Proper trim is proper trim. If you want to flutter kick, proper trim for you may very well be with your legs extended. Not everyone frog kicks. I find it difficult to maintain trim with my legs extended, but I've seen plenty of divers who can. As long as they can truly maintain trim I don't see why that is more or less efficient than the position you suggest.

Neil

Clearly, the legs extended position has less drag than a position where your lower legs are vertical and exposed to the current.

I weight myself so that horizontal trim is with legs fully extended. Fully extended, streamlined legs is a good position for a modified frog kick that uses mostly the ankles. Using this type of kick I easily keep up with people working hard with a flutter kick.

Dir TechDiver bubbled: "If you feel soreness in your lower back after practicing this, you are doing it right."

Being efficient AND comfortable is doing it even righter.

 

[mgri]

Charlie99 once bubbled...
Being efficient AND comfortable is doing it even righter.

righter.... lol

 

[DIR Tec Diver]

WIth your knees bent and your legs from knee down in veritical position, you are not affecting your streamlining or trim in any way, actually increasing it. Your head and shoulders break the water causing a slip stream around and over your body. Your leg position also provides the proper balance in order to provide you with the best possible trim and streamlining. The extended leg flutter kick brings your legs and fins below and sometimes above the slip stream. This causes excess drag, increased resistance and in turn more energy to be consumed to overcome this.

The only flutter kick that stays within the slip stream is the modified flutter kick.

WHen you have the proper propulsion techniques and trim, you will fly through the water. I can out propel a single tank diver with split fins while using my twin 15l tanks, stage and full gear while frog kicking, as I maximize my streamlining and trim, so I use much less energy and propel myself through the water very efficiently

No not everyone frog kicks, and a lot of people who do do not do it correctly, but when you have that down and comfortable it is hard to think of finning any other way.