Need advice from experienced divers/Techs - MK5 Swivel Turret - VIDEOS INCL! plz help

[SouthFLDiver89]

Hi everyone, thanks for taking time to read over my thread. I'm a bit confused/worried about my first stage MK5's swivel turret.

I just recently had my first stage (MK5) serviced at a dive shop I have never been to. That being said, first thing that happened when I first brought my regulator home, was that it blew an O-ring instantly when pressurized during initial test (scared the crap out of me lol) I then drove back to the dive shop, they changed the o-ring and the excuse was "sometimes it comes like that from the manufacturer." I did not loose my cool, and said "OK, as long as its fine now" even though he just "serviced" my regs, the o-rings should be changed regardless of wear/use. (this shop has done me wrong so many ways) But that's another story

I again tested the MK5 and it held fine this time. Yesterday, while arranging my gear for the weekend, noticed how the turret was loose. It rocks and tilts to either side, and makes a small "clink" when the brass knocks on itself from how much space there is in between the swivel and the "S.P.E.C."/first stage body. I do not want to go back to that shop and ask them about the regulator. I have suspicion, all they did, was clean my regulator and failed to take the time and really "service" my gear if serviced at all.

This swivel is haunting my mind! Can anyone with a similar (or exact model) regulator or a swivel reg in general, please look at the videos I have posted and give me your opinion as to if this regulator is safe to dive with or not. I have a back up first stage on the way (brand new) and it's a DIN valve for the extra safety lol But I have invested allot of money on these regulators and love the vintage aspect of them too much to just leave them in my bag. I planned on having the MK5 as my main set, but now looking to use it as my pony reg. (just in case)

I have uploaded these videos in hope they will help out on your opinions...the "pop/hiss" at 37/38 sec. was not picked up by YouTube. They reduce the quality I guess You can see me ''jump'' a bit tho, this swivel has me scared lol Don't know if this is normal or not...

First Stage MK5 Close up (Rocking/Loose) - http://youtu.be/K6J_UCSeePE

First Stage MK5 Under Pressure (pop/hiss at :37/:38 second mark) - http://youtu.be/w1nXGxaGJhM - Sorry about Bill Maher in the background

Any advice/opinions are welcome!

Thank You!

 

[Tbar]

Hi

I have a number of MK25 first stages I would say that have similar movement on the swivel as yours has. I would be more worried about the air leak. Possibly this has come from the swivel as you have forced it to a point that the o-ring leaked, but I have not seen my MK25 do that.

You can find the schematic for the MK5 here http://www.frogkick.dk/manuals/scubapro/Schematics/1. Stage/. If you are not familiar with the parts this might help.

The servicing sound a bit questionable, did they pressurise the reg before gibing it back? Which o-ring failed when you took it home?

 

[scubafanatic]

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/regulators/173774-complete-1st-stage-failure-scubapro-mk5.html



replacement stainless steelturret bolts can be obtained here:

Shop Online

Bryan @ vintagedoublehose will also service/repair your MK 5 too.

 

[SouthFLDiver89]

Hi

I have a number of MK25 first stages I would say that have similar movement on the swivel as yours has. I would be more worried about the air leak. Possibly this has come from the swivel as you have forced it to a point that the o-ring leaked, but I have not seen my MK25 do that.

You can find the schematic for the MK5 here http://www.frogkick.dk/manuals/scubapro/Schematics/1. Stage/. If you are not familiar with the parts this might help.

The servicing sound a bit questionable, did they pressurise the reg before gibing it back? Which o-ring failed when you took it home?

Thanks for your reply Tbar,

Come to think about it, no, they did not "demo" the regulator when I went to pick it up. He just showed me a couple of o-rings in a service drawer and a little piece of rubber. Not sure what the rubber came off of. No explanation from tech/Salesman.

I am not sure the exact name of the o-ring that blew, but when it did, the air was coming out of the center hole from the body (where the HP ports are) I believe it is the service screw cap that has to be unscrewed before servicing the regulator. (sorry for lack of technical terms)

From memory, I don't believe that it was like this before taking it in. The second stages function correctly and the SPG works also, so I'm assuming its safe to use? Bit nerve racking :nailbiter:

Thanks for the schematics! Helps to have a visual.

---------- Post added March 10th, 2015 at 06:21 AM ----------

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/regulators/173774-complete-1st-stage-failure-scubapro-mk5.html



replacement stainless steelturret bolts can be obtained here:

Shop Online

Bryan @ vintagedoublehose will also service/repair your MK 5 too.

Thanks scubafanatic,

:shocked2: The story of the MK5 in the thread you linked is so similar, now I am a bit more nervous knowing that it HAS happened to someone already...lol o boy, he too had it serviced before it failed, how reassuring

Good information in that thread, thanks, just wish someone could have found those SS bolts, would had invested in a few myself. Have to find a couple somehow...clones?

 

[SouthFLDiver89]

Sorry, did not notice the "shop online" link, my mistake on previous post.

 

[herman]

I am far from an expert on the MK-5 but that looks way too sloppy, my guess is they neglected to install nylon washer (item 14). That would account for excessive play. Orings seats (which I do know a thing or 2 about) need to be kept straight otherwise they will leak or rupture. They do not normally just rupture on their own, something is wrong with their mating surfaces when they do. The other problem with it is that will promote excessive wear on the body. I suspect COUV or AWAP will show up on the thread shortly, they are the MK-5 experts and will give you solid advise on the reg....and if they don't show up soon, PM them.

 

[halocline]

I suspect Herman is correct, they forgot to install the nylon washer part number 01-060-105. Sometimes that washer sticks in it's groove when the reg is disassembled and they might not have seen it, then it falls out in the US cleaner or somewhere else and they never knew of its existence. Sometimes they get this washer confused with one of the IP shims, which is MUCH thinner and would cause lots of slop in that area. The bigger problem is, did they over torque the turret bolt? (10-105-102) If they didn't know enough to re-install the washer, they probably are unaware of the fact that this bolt gets 35-45 inch pounds of torque, which ain't much. Since your MK5 is a 5-port late model, it's very possible that the turret bolt is already stainless steel, in which case it would not be in danger of breaking unless they really cranked it down.

The reason the turret stiffens up under pressure is because it's, well, under pressure, and that essentially pushes the turret away from the body, taking up the slack in the connection. A correctly installed one will have a very small amount of side-to-side play, not nearly as much as is in your video.

The o-ring that blew when you first pressurized it was possibly the one that sits on top of the HP seat; it has to get seated correctly in the body before installing the seat carrier. Eventually SP replaced this o-ring with a more idiot proof thick red washer. But any tech should have found this out immediately when pressurizing. If they didn't, it means they probably never pressurized the reg after service, which to me is very poor work. It means they never checked the IP or for any leaks or did any adjustment on the 2nd stage. It's hard to believe a shop would be that sloppy, but I guess you never know.

In the 2nd video your leak 30 seconds in is likely the turret o-ring, pulled out of alignment by the fact that the washer is missing.

You have two options; go back to the shop and tell them you think they're missing a washer and ask them to find it, or take it apart yourself. It's not rocket science, and it would be hard to find an easier reg to DIY service.

 

[redacted]

I dug out 4 of my Mk5s to check the play in the turrets. All have play similar to what I saw in the video - perhaps just slightly less. As a reference, I tried to stick my6 fingernail in the gap and it would not quite go. Then I took a look at likely causes of excess play. I took a Mk5 from the reserve stable and removed the nylon washer. That resulted in clearly more play than your reg displayed, so I'm fairly sure yours has the washer which prevents metal to metal contact and wear between the swivel retainer and the ambient chamber. Mine is a fairly thick washer (maybe 1/32 inch) so a slightly thinner washer would work but produce a bit more play. Another cause could be an loose swivel retainer. They are speced at about 40 in-lb torque which is little more than finger tight and a nudge. The difference between properly torqued and just finger tight does not seem to have any noticeable effect on the play. And, it would have to get quite loose before it started leaking past that o-ring seal.

Bottom line is I think your Mk5 swivel is OK. But do keep an eye on it to make sure the play does not get any worse. If it did, that would indicate to me that the swivel retainer is loose. But this is not something that would be expected to loosen during a dive, so I would just moniter it between dive. Like hose connections, it is probably a good idea to check connections like that occasionally anyway.

The popping sound of an o-ring seating is another matter. The swivel o-ring has quite a long cylinder in the ambient chamber that it sits in giving it a plenty of sealing surface to work with. And that o-ring is well captured in a groove in the swivel so I doubt if that is the source of the popping sound. Tank valve face o-rings popping into place is not uncommon but that should occur quickly as the valve is opened.

You might want to do a bit more troubleshooting on that one. My 1st suspect would be the seal on the top face of the HP seat. I still use an o-ring for that seal and they must be seated correctly during assembly or they will leak. Current kits use a red washer which looks to be less vulnerable to assembly errors. And, once it popped into place and sealed, I would expect the problem would be cured. So, I suggest you play with that one a bit more and see what more you can learn.

So, I would dive it cautiously until you work through that problem. The saving grace is an o-ring failure may cause gas lose, perhaps quite rapid, but the reg should keep working so you can safely end the dive if a problem does occur.

Lack of confidence in work done by an authorized LDS is what got me started with DIY. If my reg is not working OK, I know exactly who to blame and is eager to fix it.

And, YES, that swivel retainer is the "Jesus nut" in your regulator. If it lets go, all IP gas delivery stops. I think I only had one Mk5 with the SS swivel retainer (and about 8 others with original brass retainers). As long as they are not subjected to excess torque, they should be fine. (My local shop did not even own a torque wrench so he did not touch my gear.)

 

[SouthFLDiver89]

Awesome, thanks for all the advice guys! This really is the best scuba forum learned more here in two days than I ever had from a tech.

Thanks scubafanatic, I already ordered a pair of the replacements!

Also thanks Herman, halocine, and awap!
Your posts helped allot. Like awap, I tried to stick my nail under the swivel and it fits fine...o boy...so I believe you guys are right and it might be the washer is missing.

like most of you mentioned, they DID NOT pressure test it in front of me when I went to pick it up, which just further leads me to beleive you guys are right. Had to be a lack of detail/knowledge/care on the techs side.

think I might just have to learn to self service. Awap makes allot of good points. Bet there's so many stories of "lack of trust" twords shops among the community.

I will wait for the new bolts to arrive and take it to a new SP tech to have them re-service it. Meanwhile, I will continue to dive it and just keep caution like suggested. BUT if it was to fail while diving, would water not get into the second stages and damage them?

Thanks again guys!

 

[redacted]

2nd stages are mostly exposed to water anyway so no real danger of damage to them. The inside of the 1st stage is what normally does not see any water and can be damaged. A missing washer leaves enough of a gap that you can easily stick two fingernails into the gap at the same time - one from each side. With my Mk5s, I can get one fingernail in with a little effort but that twists the swivel enough to make the opposite gap inaccessible with my other finger. If you can get fingernails in both side at the same time, the washer is likely missing which should result in almost a 1mm gap all the way around.