Necklace Octo holder

[OldNSalty]

44" primary and bungied second and all I do is recreational diving. I have tried several different configurations and I like this one most so far.

 

[TSandM]

Reefduffer, that's an interesting approach, but it may be idiosyncratic to your particular second stage conformation.

I do like having the possibility of the mouthpiece pulling out of the necklace, since I'm given to senior moments, like trying to take my gear off without taking off the necklace

 

[Peter_C]

The boltsnap is currently 2" down the hose from the maximum snug against the regulator body that it could be. I like it there.

This is how I was trained to donate from my primary reg.
Donating the Long Hose - Initial Step - YouTube

This is more complicated. My bungee necklace attach is quite non-standard, and I'm aware of that. I used the conventional attach using a zip-tie around the mouthpiece for a couple of years, and didn't like it. It was always threatening to come loose, and did a couple of times.

The failure is exactly why I mentioned you can get higher quality zip ties from Home Depot and the like with a stainless steel tang instead of plastic.

I've read enough SB threads about this so I'll do the cons I've thought of:
- I can't grab the backup with my mouth without using my hands.
... I couldn't with the conventional setup, and it seems only a minority of divers can. Not important to me.

I can't grab my backup reg with just my mouth either. I can just scoop it up with my hand and promptly deposit it in my mouth without having to turn or flip it over though.

- I can't just rip the reg out of the necklace in case of entanglement.
... But it just pulls over my head to remove. And I could cut it if necessary. And I like it secure.

Before I took Fundies a few years ago my instructor was checking over our gear and saw my bungee backup and said look this won't work and proceeded to pull hard on my backup bungee trying to free the loop from the reg. It took him a good 3-4 hard pulls before it finally released. I did have to modify it to his way of bungee under the zip tie before taking the class, and haven't gone back to a loop around the mouth piece yet. Personally I like the idea that it can come free with a really hard tug.

It wasn't the reason I did this, but an added benefit is that the reg hangs mouthpiece-down, so the occasional freeflow at the surface that happened with the conventional setup, doesn't now.

That is one of the reasons an adjustable second stage is the clear winner. It can be detuned so it doesn't free flow, then when needed opened up to breathe easily. Have you thought about detuning yours a little bit more to stop the free flow? Do you find it natural to flip the reg over as you put it in your mouth? Not being able to easily put the reg in my mouth would be my biggest concern with how you have the bungee mounted.

But it's time for SB to tell me how I'm Gonna Die^TM. I've demonstrated I will listen, but not to just "it's different".

The whole tag line you are gonna die is a joke, as everyone is going to die.

I like bright colors for dive gear

 

[reefduffer]

Thanks for the discussion. Once again, easiest first, and there's parts I don't see a need to discuss further:

Reefduffer, that's an interesting approach, but it may be idiosyncratic to your particular second stage conformation.

Yes. That's one of the reasons, maybe the least, that I haven't previously posted this with a suggestion for anyone else to do it this way. At this point, if I had to use a different reg, I'd start with trying to do something similar, but I don't know what exactly that would be, so recommending it to others who most likely have different regs seems like a non-starter.

That is one of the reasons an adjustable second stage is the clear winner. It can be detuned so it doesn't free flow, then when needed opened up to breathe easily. Have you thought about detuning yours a little bit more to stop the free flow?

I did actually ask the tech to do that at one annual service early on. It's no longer a problem, probably due to my configuration, or maybe it's still detuned several years later?

While I don't want to belabor this point, I'd think an adjustable second stage for a backup is not optimum; anything that allows it to be in a state that requires adjustment before breathing could be a problem. That can be mitigated with checks, and it might still be the best solution on balance, but if it can be made unnecessary...

Do you find it natural to flip the reg over as you put it in your mouth? Not being able to easily put the reg in my mouth would be my biggest concern with how you have the bungee mounted.

I haven't ever noticed a hint of problem. Grab the face of the regulator, palm mostly down, and turn my wrist. I have never grabbed the mouthpiece and attempted to put the purge valve in my mouth. In one regard it's actually easier, since the bungee isn't near the mouthpiece. If that really is your biggest concern, rest easy.

The failure is exactly why I mentioned you can get higher quality zip ties from Home Depot and the like with a stainless steel tang instead of plastic.

Actually, the problems I had with it coming loose were not issues with the zip-tie failing, at least as far as I can see. It is the case that I use standard strength 50 lb zip-ties with plastic tangs, and I didn't do any rigorous failure analysis; I'll acknowledge it could have slipped a tooth without me realizing, although I don't think that's a typical failure mode.

I did have to be at Home Depot over the weekend so I looked at their selection. They had some "Heavy Duty" guys rated at 175 lbs, but they still had plastic tangs. They had some all (including the strap) stainless steel ties rated at 100 lbs, but that seems a bad choice for around hoses etc., and if it's even equal strength, I'd rather have nylon over ss for saltwater use. Nothing else with ss tangs, and I asked. HD had Central Electric brand, but the selection seemed identical to Gardner Bender, see Gardner Bender Products, Cable Ties. I also see some Super Duty ties up to 350 lbs at McMaster Carr, which also seem to be all nylon.

But thanks, I hadn't given it much thought previously, and if I discover a need for higher strength zip-ties, I now know they're available.

I do like having the possibility of the mouthpiece pulling out of the necklace, since I'm given to senior moments, like trying to take my gear off without taking off the necklace

Before I took Fundies a few years ago my instructor was checking over our gear and saw my bungee backup and said look this won't work and proceeded to pull hard on my backup bungee trying to free the loop from the reg. It took him a good 3-4 hard pulls before it finally released. I did have to modify it to his way of bungee under the zip tie before taking the class, and haven't gone back to a loop around the mouth piece yet. Personally I like the idea that it can come free with a really hard tug.

The whole issue of pulling free with some level of hard pull seems to be the primary concern. I'm confused about where the requirement comes from, it strikes me as a phantom, vaguely like the typical rec diver thinking the long hose configuration is a choking hazard.

I have also tried, when tired and distracted, to take my gear off without removing the necklace. It reminded me. It was a little startling and annoying, but not painful, and I didn't have to reassemble my gear to recover.

But, and here's the biggest reason I haven't posted before: The bungeed backup is a configuration originating with, and used mostly by, tech divers. I'm not a tech diver, and don't intend to become one. I just like this regulator configuration, while not being interested in other gear configurations associated with tech diving. I acknowledge that the cons I listed of grabbing the reg without hands, and pulling it free from the necklace, and maybe some others that haven't even occurred to me, may be rightly considered very important to some tech divers for the environment they dive in, and it's just both stupid and pointless for me to suggest they adopt mine.

OTOH, I've also seen what appears to be pretty knowledgeable tech divers saying it shouldn't pull loose, so even there there seems to be some conflict. See DIR-diver.com - Backup Reg Rigging. I'm obviously not following all his advice, just pointing out some conflicting opinion, which leaves me more unclear on where the requirement comes from, and therefore whether it's important to my diving.

And there's the Poseidon Xstream regulator. In a post back in 2007 I asked about regs with an attach point for the necklace, See this thread http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ho...-guide-how-make-surgical-tubing-necklace.html post #4 and responses - it's a short thread, only 12 posts. Yes, I've been thinking about the problem that long. And SB member Cyclops_Diver clued me in to this. This reg is almost by definition directed at tech divers.

I went looking and had a bit more luck this time. I downloaded the Xstream manual from Manuals | Poseidon. Page 9 says this:
Integrated surgical hose fixing points safely secures the regulator to the diver, but in an emergency allows a distressed buddy to retrieve the regulator without undue stress to the diver.
That could be ambiguous about intended use, but page 18 lists this among accessories:
Xstream (neck strap) surgical cord

And on page 10 I found a picture, clipped out and attached below. My point isn't that they're right, but that somebody building regs almost exclusively for tech divers apparently doesn't think hard attach points for the necklace are a problem. I (and others) could still be wrong about what they intend this for, but there it is.


I don't have any fundies instructors (or team members) telling me my necklace has to pull free, just like I don't have any PADI instructors telling me I need a snorkel. I'm free to decide what matters for me. I'm continually evaluating and refining that.

It's all tradeoffs. Maybe my necklace would be improved with something like a fastex release. I don't want it pulling free with moderate force, and especially if that might compromise the mouthpiece attachment. Maybe I'm wrong about the risks, which is why I continue to listen to anyone who'll discuss it rationally.

 

[gcbryan]

I don't particularly want my bungeed necklace to pull the mouth piece off either. I've forgot to take mine off my neck after a dive as well and as was mentioned above...it let me know! I don't see the issue. Mine is bungeed around the mouth piece area with a double fisherman's knot which I'm assuming what we are talking about here.

My set-up is as a few others have described...22" hose with bungeed necklace and a 44" primary hose using a 90 degree fitting. Needless to say I'm not a tech diver.

 

[Peter_C]

I did actually ask the tech to do that at one annual service early on. It's no longer a problem, probably due to my configuration, or maybe it's still detuned several years later?

How many years since service? Every couple of years a reg deserves a tear down, cleaning, and some lube added in.

While I don't want to belabor this point, I'd think an adjustable second stage for a backup is not optimum; anything that allows it to be in a state that requires adjustment before breathing could be a problem. That can be mitigated with checks, and it might still be the best solution on balance, but if it can be made unnecessary...

You don't have to open the valve to breathe you just put it in your mouth and breathe. Mine will breathe exactly like yours, right up until I want it to breathe easier and then it will breathe much easier than yours. To me that is a benefit. Plus my back up is probably less likely to free flow.

From the article you posted above:

[FONT=verdana,arial][h=5]Picking a suitable second stage
[/h]Since the backup will hang upside down it will be prone to freeflow. Actually most second stages are suppose to be adjusted when serviced so that they freeflow in this position. To solve that problem you have three options:

• Have your second stage detuned when you service it
• Use an unbalanced "low performance" second stage like Scubapro R190.
• Use an high performance second stage with cracking pressure adjustment

Option number three is what I prefer. Now I can detune the second stage underwater and if I need to breath it for an extended amount of time I can tune it up again.

[/FONT]

I haven't ever noticed a hint of problem. Grab the face of the regulator, palm mostly down, and turn my wrist. I have never grabbed the mouthpiece and attempted to put the purge valve in my mouth. In one regard it's actually easier, since the bungee isn't near the mouthpiece. If that really is your biggest concern, rest easy.

Then it works for you. Practice switching to it often, and the muscle memory will be there. For me as a buddy I would only care about the primary in your mouth and that you can get air if I need the primary.

But thanks, I hadn't given it much thought previously, and if I discover a need for higher strength zip-ties, I now know they're available.

You scared me that I couldn't get them at HD anymore, so I walked out in the garage and grabbed one of the three bags I have remaining of them to look up the part number. The Harbor Freight zip ties suck in the way of strength. I have like 6-7 bags of them, since they are cheap and work just fine for holding wiring etc.
11 in. Black 50# Cable Ties (10-Pack)-776301 at The Home Depot

I have also tried, when tired and distracted, to take my gear off without removing the necklace. It reminded me. It was a little startling and annoying, but not painful, and I didn't have to reassemble my gear to recover.

We have all done that! The buddy system comes into play here by laughing with your buddy DOH!

OTOH, I've also seen what appears to be pretty knowledgeable tech divers saying it shouldn't pull loose, so even there there seems to be some conflict. See DIR-diver.com - Backup Reg Rigging. I'm obviously not following all his advice, just pointing out some conflicting opinion, which leaves me more unclear on where the requirement comes from, and therefore whether it's important to my diving.

Although I believe in the entire system as a whole, sometimes there are small changes that happen to work for particular gear choices or diving styles. The word "requirement" would be better changed to the word "recommended". Remember lots of highly trained divers have developed a Hogarthian system that functions about as well as possible in most every type of diving, and trying to make radical changes is taking away from a near perfect system, and could possibly be adding in a failure point. The failure might be something like a teammate not recognizing how another teammates gear is configured. Not everyone's gear has to be exactly the same, but for instance I would expect to find their knife in roughly the same place as mine, on the front of the waist belt. Notice I didn't mention the type of knife, nor the color!

 

[reefduffer]

Thanks again. Cleaning up some loose ends:

How many years since service? Every couple of years a reg deserves a tear down, cleaning, and some lube added in.

Every year, same time. I've bought into the Oceanic "free service parts" thing; for my one singles reg set (and my wife's), and non-interest in becoming competent at reg service myself, it's cheap insurance and peace of mind. And keeps up some ongoing relationship with my LDS, since I don't buy much gear except the odd accessory from them any more.

My comment was intended to be slightly sarcastic, but that didn't translate apparently, maybe needed a smiley. That 2nd stage has been overhauled three or four times since, unless they're just pretending to and giving me somebody else's baggie of assorted used O-rings and small parts. :cool2:
Maybe they record and reproduce the tuning they see when they open it up, but I'm guessing not.

You scared me that I couldn't get them at HD anymore, so I walked out in the garage and grabbed one of the three bags I have remaining of them to look up the part number. The Harbor Freight zip ties suck in the way of strength. I have like 6-7 bags of them, since they are cheap and work just fine for holding wiring etc.
11 in. Black 50# Cable Ties (10-Pack)-776301 at The Home Depot

The link works, and I see it on the HD web page. I didn't see it in the store, and in fact they didn't have any GB ties, although they had some other GB products, and I seem to remember seeing GB ties there some time ago when buying some other electrical parts. The page says "Gardner Bender 11 in. Black 50# Cable Ties (10-Pack) ...MFG Brand Name : Gardner Bender MFG Model # : 77630 MFG Part # : 776301 ... Tensile strength (lb.) 50.0".

In a previous post, I had referenced the GB cable tie pdf catalog at Gardner Bender Products, Cable Ties . I just searched that for 77630 and got no matches, and looked at each of the 8 pages and found nothing like this. I don't know where the disconnect is, maybe this part # is obsolete/discontinued, maybe GB doesn't think these are cable ties and has them in some other catalog? Maybe HD has some "new old stock"?

Before you panic, note that this HD web page says the item you prefer is rated at 50#, same as the standard duty ties I have, and those CE brand ties I saw in the HD store, with plastic tangs. You can quibble about off-brand manufacturers cutting corners on specs, but note that both GB and CE (in the HD B&M store) heavy duty ties rated at 175 lbs are readily available, so unless you're hung up on having a ss tang, those might suit you better.

 

[Diesel00]

I have used one since I got certify. I have had my reg knocked out of my mouth and since it's on the necklace i don't have to do anything but grab it. No dropping my shoulder down and moving my arm to find my reg.

 

[divendesign]

I don't understand why the necklaced octo is not standard. The PADI instructor guide clearly shows that the octo placement should be inside of the triangle as shown below. I think a necklaced octo would fall into that same area - don't you? Ironically most divers clip their octopus on the right side of the BCD, which would fall outside of the shown triangle. Even yet most fall out of the octo keeper and float behind the diver and or drag on the bottom. The necklace is the way to go.

As for the long hose... Jarrod Jablonski clearly states in his book that a long hose is not manditory unless Cave/deco/overhead diving where areas are confined and sharing air would be made easier with the long hose. For shallower non-deco dives shorter hoses are OK, only says that most recreational divers convert to a longer hose for comfort. Regardless of hose size you still need to make contact with the OOA diver so he/she doesn't lose their air source. A long hose can still be yanked out.

 

[rhwestfall]

Yet at the last bit of instruction I was at (Master Diver Cert.), and being the only guy with a long hose primary/bungied octo, you should have heard the disfavor the instructor let go with as we discussed methods of dealing with an OOA situation. The funny part is that the person whom was my buddy throughout the drills (as well as the last individual I was teamed with in my Rescue Class) thought it was the cats meow......

I just don't know how the change will ever happen (and I only mean acceptance, not as an "only choice").....