necklace not annoying?

[stuartv]

Because if you go from the assumption that anything and everything can be re-engineered and improved upon by an intelligent but untrained and unexperienced person

I said I do question everything. I did not say that I try and re-engineer and improve everything. I question things so that I will understand why they are the way they are. It's a lot easier to remember how to do things correctly when you understand WHY they are done that way. It's also a lot easier to detect when something is wrong and maybe how to fix it, when you know why things are the way they are.

In the case of the reg necklace, it is my understanding that that is something that has come from the Tech diving world and is starting to catch on in Rec diving. In Tech diving, I imagine that ONE of the reasons for the reg necklace is that it offers the potential for the diver to use it without having to use their hands. I don't think that's a concern for Rec diving, thus leading me to wonder if one would do things differently if the functional requirement to be able to begin using it without using your hands were taken away, and if the alternatives (when you don't have that requirement) would be an improvement in any way, for Rec diving. So, to your point about a hundred years of refinement, etc., I ask - has a reg necklace really been in use in Rec diving for that long, or is the reg necklace a somewhat newer concept in Rec diving that might yet be subject to further refinement?

Am I wrong in thinking this setup comes from Tech diving? Am I wrong in thinking that Tech and Rec diving have different requirements? Am I wrong in thinking that a highly refined setup that is the result of one set of requirements is possibly not the best setup when attempting to meet a different set of requirements?

Again, I recognize my inexperience and ignorance. This is why I am asking more experienced and knowledgeable people these questions instead of assuming that my own knowledge and my own line of reasoning is sound and sufficient. And why I'm not just going off with a plan to try it for myself. I recognize that having a "great idea" and going off to "just try it myself" is the kind of thing that could get me or someone else seriously dead.

Finally, regarding people giving a thesis defense - I understand and I am not asking them to. I'm asking if there is anyone who IS able to explain why idea represented by my earlier question is bad and if they are willing to take the time to explain it to me. The people who can't or don't have the time to explain it are certainly under no obligation to respond to my question. Nor is anyone else, for that matter. I just appreciate all the knowledgeable people on here who DO take the time to spell it out for the inexperienced and ignorant people like myself. If I didn't respect the collective wisdom here, I wouldn't ask the questions.

---------- Post added October 29th, 2014 at 01:58 PM ----------

Be careful with this, if your octo come loose from the holder, and float behind you, you may not be able to recovery that easily with a 22" hose especially with thick suit. Imagine a OOA diver rip your primary and you have to search for your octo in this case.

Good point! And exactly why I asked the question.

---------- Post added October 29th, 2014 at 02:03 PM ----------

So, having determined that some people use a bungeed secondary, most people who do don't find their chins bumping it when they look down, and a few people have but don't really care, how is this little survey going to affect your choice of gear? You know you're going to try it at some point, if only out of curiosity.

It means that I expect I will try the reg necklace and, if it does not bother me (as it seems to not bother so many people), I will most likely stick with that, as I believe in conforming to standards unless there is real value to not conforming. Though I still might consider trying the other way - depending on if I feel confident in recovering a reg that has gotten loose and floated behind me, as eelnoraa has pointed out.

If people had responded that the other method I asked about was bad and given solid reasons why (eelnoraa's scenario notwithstanding), then I would understand and I would NOT bother to try the other method. Thinking about eelnoraa's scenario definitely has me thinking that maybe that is sufficient reason all by itself to not try the idea I asked about.

 

[divad]

Do It Like This:
1 Zip-Tie and 2 knots

Make it a little long so you can adjust the length by pulling on one off the knots while diving, then make a new knot and cut off the excess.

 

[stuartv]

Do It Like This:

The pic is so small I can't really tell what's going on there.

---------- Post added October 29th, 2014 at 02:09 PM ----------

Cpt, the suicide strap shouldn't hang that low.... You need it tight enough to where you can rotate the case with your chin to get to the mouthpiece, so it's a balance between how tight it is and how low it hangs.

To the OP, you can try this with existing equipment if you want, it's a buck of bungee cord.

[video=youtube;X0aS6kRYkeQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0aS6kRYkeQ[/video]

You shouldn't need to be looking at anything on your rig except your SPG to manipulate it, you need to train yourself to do it all based off of touch.....

Way cool, tbone! Thanks!

ps. Being able to do it all by touch is certainly my goal!

 

[Imla]

I am just wondering... why do you need to see your belt buckle?

(Oh.. and no, I can't get my reg in without using my hand. No, it doesn't bother me and No, I have never had trouble with finding my belt buckle, adjusting stuff or gear. If I _need_ to see what I am doing, a small flip of the reg to the side will solve that.)

Yes.... Rec and Tech do have different needs. However, as the slogan for GUE is: Beginning with the end in mind usually isn't wrong. Having a conscious attitude towards WHY you do what you do will never be wrong. Personally, I like to be sure that if (God forbid) my buddy is out of gas, he will get a tested reg with a safe gas!

 

[stuartv]

I am just wondering... why do you need to see your belt buckle?

I don't know what the real world scenarios are. I just know that in the various skills we had to do in the confined water stuff last weekend, one thing I had to do was put on my BC while in the water (and not sitting on the bottom). I had some difficulties, but they were due to it being literally the first time I had ever put on that model of BC (the dive shop changed me from a jacket to a back inflate between Sat and Sun and I didn't even get to try it on Sun morning before they put it in the pool and told me to get in and put it on). When I got in, I didn't even know if it had a cummerbund or just a belt and with what kind of buckles. During the process (which I did complete without help), I found that I was trying to look down at the belt area and I was having trouble seeing it because one of the instructors put way too much anti-fog in my mask before I got in and the first time I cleared some water it splashed anti-fog in my eyes and was stinging pretty badly.

The result was that I ended up feeling like being able to look down and see my belt buckle/lower torso might be something I'd want to be able to do. And maybe that's just not a realistic thing to care about, since I don't expect to EVER have a situation again like I did in the pool on Sunday morning. But, between that and just generally not liking stuff to get in the way if I lower my head, it got me to wondering about whether I would like the reg necklace arrangement and whether there was an alternative with most of the benefits and without that potential problem.

I have also been wondering why the preferred setup for the alternate is a short hose instead of the same length hose as the primary, with both going under the right arm and the alternate still on a necklace. But, I hesitate to ask for fear of more chastisement for being an ignorant newb that is questioning The Way It Is Done.


---------- Post added October 29th, 2014 at 02:31 PM ----------

Do It Like This:
1 Zip-Tie and 2 knots

Make it a little long so you can adjust the length by pulling on one off the knots while diving, then make a new knot and cut off the excess.

Ah HA! I see it now. Nice and simple. I like that.

So there's this and the necklace arrangement shown in the video tbone posted. Is one preferred over the other? It seems like this method would be more secure against the reg getting accidentally pulled out of the necklace. But, tbone's method would self-tighten as you pull on it, so maybe that's not a concern.

 

[Crush]

How would a back-kick give you a better view of your torso, if a reg on a necklace is in the way? (forgive my ignorance - I am a newb!)

Many (most?) newly-trained divers tend to orient themselves vertically in the water as though they were standing. A better practice (in my opinion) is to orient yourself horizontally, as though you were lying on your stomach. I keep my neck craned back so that I am looking "forward" (in the direction of travel) as I kick. If I am directly obove an object of interest I look down at it. If I drift past and the object is now at my navel I do a back-kick so that it is now in front of my face again (when my neck is not craned). Clear as mud? Don't know how to better explain it. Sorry!

Also, wouldn't a diver with an octo in the traditional Rec config also say that they know exactly where it is, and it's accessible with maybe 1/2 second longer time than on a necklace?

[Remember: I'm a newb. Just finished confined water work - so I know I may be asking a stupid question]

You are asking good questions. I am not saying that every form of octo clip or retractor are aweful (some of them are). With any clip or retractor system your octo has to be able to move to make it to your mouth - you have to unclip it or otherwise pull it free to breathe off it. There is a small possibility that the octo might become unclipped as you dive and you don't notice it. With my octo bungied around my neck the only way for it to become "lost" is for it to slip off my neck without me noticing. I can also check where it is with my chin, keeping my hands free for other things. You might try the bungie and not like it. Personally I hate diving without my octo on a necklace.

I like the idea of having the primary be the intended donor reg. There should never be an issue of my buddy finding it, that way. Nor ever an issue handing it to my buddy only to find out it's not working for some reason. Or my buddy sucking a mouthful of silt.

And I like the idea of streamlining the hose for the alternate.

But, I get really bugged by having my mask pulled down and hanging around my neck on the surface, so I'm imagining myself being bugged by having a reg hanging there. As well as being bugged by not easily being able to see down. Thus my question about having the same setup except running over the shoulder and down, and clipping the alternate to the right shoulder strap.

A mask around my neck is much more cumbersome than an octo. BTW, the cool kids pull off their masks at the surface and put them on their foreheads but backwards.

When diving with a new buddy I always show them my bungie and explain to them that they are never getting my octo. I tell them that I will donate the reg that I am using. I also tell them that they are welcome to just grab my reg out of my mouth if they need it - I'll get my octo into my mouth and then we'll sort out the problem.

 

[tbone1004]

the reg won't be as obnoxious as a mask, you shouldn't have it down there anyway, it's a safety reason actually, but won't get into that.

The small picture is just an overhand knot with the bungee under the zip tie holding the mouthpiece on. Obviously only something you can do with personal regulators. It works for some, I prefer to use the suicide straps linked in the video since they can be transferred to any regulator and adjusted accordingly. If you cut the bungee long enough you can tie a knot in the back for adjustment or you can take one of the slides off of a croakie and use that.

The reason for not going under the arm for both is another safety factor. Going under the right shoulder means the regulator has to go back up to the mouth and has to be quite long to allow the diver to look left. The short hose behind your neck allows the hose to be quite short, often only 20 inches or so and very streamlined. Another safety factor since the hoses have difficult being twisted if they are routed differently.

This all comes back to the original configuration of this hose set up which is doubles. So instead of the one first stage directly behind your neck, the secondary comes from behind your left shoulder and the 7' long hose goes down from behind your right shoulder. Many of us have been diving the short hose configuration you are talking about for many years in open water environments and it is a vastly superior hose routing because no hoses are bowing out.

 

[eelnoraa]

I actually think the zip tight way is better than the bungee loop way. The last thing you want is the backup to come loose from the necklace for no reason. If in any case I get entangle and want the backup to come off, I can always cut the bungee.

 

[stuartv]

A mask around my neck is much more cumbersome than an octo. BTW, the cool kids pull off their masks at the surface and put them on their foreheads but backwards.

Yeah, most of our instructors were doing that, and one explained that, on a dive boat, wearing your mask on your forehead (not backwards) is a signal that there is a problem.

I mentioned not liking it around my neck because I tried it there. It was easier to put it there than turning it around and putting it on my forehead. And I was less concerned that it might accidentally get away from me. I will work on my mask-lifting-and-flipping-around skills.

---------- Post added October 29th, 2014 at 03:05 PM ----------

tbone and eelnoraa, thank you very much for your patience and explanations!

---------- Post added October 29th, 2014 at 03:07 PM ----------

the secondary comes from behind your left shoulder

So, in a single tank Rec setup, would have you have the secondary come over the right or left shoulder?

 

[victorzamora]

Over your right shoulder