Near miss with an experienced diver

[chillyinCanada]

I don't buy it. It only takes a few seconds to dump air and kick down if all is well. If it's not all well, you are missing the site for sure. Better to be safe on the surface than an accident underwater.

I've done this in the strongest currents in the world in Cocos, Galapagos, British Columbia, etc and not missed sites. BTW, I challenge you to do a negative entry in a drysuit. So it is just an uneesesary risk especially for new divers being stressed with a time sensitive group drop. Be fast but safe.

I don't recommend new divers to be diving locales that require negative entries.

 

[davehicks]

I've seen "experienced" people with 100's of dives (myself included) do many things that could escalate to serious problems that could result in a significant injury on a negative entry:

• Air not turned on or fully turned on
• No fins
• Mask lost on entry
  
• Tank that comes loose from BCD
• Wildly free flowing 2nd stage octo
• Dry suit unzipped resulting in complete flooding
• Rebreather loop flooding instantly due to loose fitting

Everyone can make a mistake regardless of experience level. Better to deal with the mistake on the surface.

To amplify this, there is a lot of anxiety and pre-dive stress that some people feel with pressured to hurry into the water. This can lead to extra mistakes. Group leaders can certainly do this responsibly and double check everyone first, but that is not how it always works out. Don't be pressured to cut corners on safety.

 

[uncfnp]

The thing is, there is best practice and procedures for different dives. Some dives need negative entry. Asking or expecting the Captain or crew to vary their procedure to accommodate your specific needs isn’t always ideal. If they can without compromising the others on the boat or the dive I am sure they will. But expecting a boat to vary their procedure to meet your requirments isn’t always reasonable.

In short, if you are not comfortable with the requirements of any specific dive, don't do the dive.

 

[johndiver999]

A negative entry does not necessarily require the diver to be negative, what is required is that the diver be able
To descend immediately. If the diver can do a duck dive and swim down head first, then there is no need to be anything other than neutral at the surface. If doing a back roll, a diver can often use the inertia from the entry to drive them down enough to have the fins submerged- again, being negative is not really necessary. It definitely does not require a diver carry excess lead, above what would normally be carried.

I wonder if people understood that a negative entry does
not require being excessively negative or entering the water with their buoyancy out of control, there would be less problems with it.

 

[RayfromTX]

My wife had an experience where the boat boy closed her valve and cracked it open when she wasn't looking. When we got down around 40' she yelled my name through her reg. I looked over at her and she pointed at her valve. I moved towards her while glancing at my Perdix where I monitor my air as well as hers. Her pressure read in the low 100s. I realized that her valve was closed and so I opened it for her. She was totally calm and collected the whole time. After I opened her valve, she took a breath, read her guage, gave me an OK and signaled to follow the other team.

Later on the boat I asked her why she didn't just open her own valve. She said she could have but knew it would be easier for me to do it and she could always stretch and get it herself if I didn't understand and do it when asked. She screwed up, yeah, but the calmness with which she handled it was pretty reassuring. She would handle it differently now. This was on perhaps dive 40 or so. Nobody touches our valves now. If we end up with a closed valve it will be because we screwed up, not somebody on the boat trying to be helpful.

 

[BRT]

You don't need to breathe your tank to empty... it would take a while and it's not good for the tank. Just turn the tank on, breathe from it, turn the valve off, keep breathing (or try to.)

Not the same.

 

[CuzzA]

A negative entry does not necessarily require the diver to be negative, what is required is that the diver be able
To descend immediately. If the diver can do a duck dive and swim down head first, then there is no need to be anything other than neutral at the surface. If doing a back roll, a diver can often use the inertia from the entry to drive them down enough to have the fins submerged- again, being negative is not really necessary. It definitely does not require a diver carry excess lead, above what would normally be carried.

I wonder if people understood that a negative entry does
not require being excessively negative or entering the water with their buoyancy out of control, there would be less problems with it.

Agreed. Seems to be some confusion and negative entry is probably a poor way to describe the technique. Everyone should be diving a balanced rig and be able to swim up their kit with ease. Even if you splashed with the valve off or an empty tank you should be able to swim the 10 to 20 feet back to the surface to rectify the problem. I've seen it happen. Not a big deal for an experienced diver.

Trying to dive bomb a specific spot in deep water, maybe reduced viz, and current requires this technique. Our captain will hit the spot on the bottom machine and when you hear "neutral", it's go time. Hang around on the surface and you'll likely be diving the sand.

 

[Ana]

Everyone can make a mistake regardless of experience level. Better to deal with the mistake on the surface.

To amplify this, there is a lot of anxiety and pre-dive stress that some people feel with pressured to hurry into the water. This can lead to extra mistakes. Group leaders can certainly do this responsibly and double check everyone first, but that is not how it always works out. Don't be pressured to cut corners on safety.

Agree that everyone makes mistakes... there's times shampoo gets in my eyes when I'm in the shower, and I've been washing my hair over half a century. Now for me it isn't better to deal with a mistake on the surface, few feet below gives me more control and if there's a hard bottom that's the ultimate location to adjust stuff.
I happen to enjoy negative entries, seems counterintuitive to jump in and immediately reverse the downward motion. Do a back-roll, stretch and continue the motion down. Actually the full process is, drink the last bit of water, start breathing the reg while unwrapping a few yards of line on the flag reel, wait for husband to disengage the engine, tell him that I love him and then, do the back-roll,stretch and do the dive.

As far as anxiety and pre-dive stress, maybe for people during instruction or on the first dozen dives, but shouldn't people reassess their recreational activities if they produce anxiety or stress? I admit to be on a rush to get in the water sometimes but is because I've been drinking too much on the way to the site and I need to pee.

The thing is, there is best practice and procedures for different dives. Some dives need negative entry. Asking or expecting the Captain or crew to vary their procedure to accommodate your specific needs isn’t always ideal. If they can without compromising the others on the boat or the dive I am sure they will. But expecting a boat to vary their procedure to meet your requirments isn’t always reasonable.

In short, if you are not comfortable with the requirements of any specific dive, don't do the dive.

I pretty much stopped going on charters but unless they tell you in advance the highlights of their process, I would expect them to accommodate my needs, something about "paying customer" and them providing "a service" you know.


Remember some operators insisting on getting an ok sign after separating from the vessel, felt like an annoyance having to use one hand for that instead of getting in the water all tucked in. I believe it to be a control thing, if you need anything you'll ask, if you continue down is because you have what you need. On top of that some boats have quite a freeboard so you jump several yards down and you have to comeback up? pfff

 

[uncfnp]

I would expect them to accommodate my needs, something about "paying customer" and them providing "a service" you know.

Unless your special needs impacts my needs. Both “paying customers.”

When you want special treatment, especially when it conflicts with established procedures, that’s called a private charter or your own boat. As I recall, you went the private boat option.

 

[Ana]

Unless your special needs impacts my needs. Both “paying customers.”

When you want special treatment, especially when it conflicts with established procedures, that’s called a private charter or your own boat. As I recall, you went the private boat option.

Yes I went the private boat option, but you have to admit that is rotten to find out after the boat is underway about certain non typical procedures.
Lately if I want to invite someone to dive of my boat I have to warn them about no giant stride... You wouldn't believe how many people pass when i tell them so. It has actually became a great litmus test. I definitely don't want to deal with someone that feels challenged by a back roll.