Question Near incident. What should I have done?

[steinbil]

I told him this at the surface, he said I should know this applies to buddy separation, not instructor-student separation

Now that's a giant, stinking load of BS, and it defies all logic. If he wanted other procedures for separation it should be covered in the pre-dive briefing. In any case, asking students to wait underwater if they are separated from their instructor, especially when low on gas, is a recipe for disaster.

No, full overhead. Enter room through corridor, exit through different corridor type of thing.

If it indeed matches your description it is WILDLY inappropriate for any diver not trained in overhead procedures. In any case taking AOW students into overheads without plenty of very easy exits that are always visible is madness. Doing it beyond the depth limit of their current certification is even worse. Then add heavy current, single point of exit, insufficient gas planning and a 9:1 ratio of students/guided divers to a guidestructor to complete the bouquet of clusterfcuk.

Matter of fact, I didn't and I didn't think about this until right now. I'm ordering a 30m reel as we speak. I don't think I would actually have deployed from 20, when the instructor found us at 20 I had only just detached the SMB from my BCD. Thanks for this callout. I'm comfortable deploying the SMB from 5 meters, I do it every dive if the guide allows me just to keep myself comfortable with it

A 30m reel/spool is NOT enough to shoot an SMB from 30m. You need way more than that to account for a diagonal stretch to the surface in current.

 

[OctopusLover]

Except that you don't know what the original plan was or how far it went, because you aborted it
and went off on your own and then had to back track using the air that was reserved for the plan

This is not the case. The original plan, whatever it was, began with a penetration at 25m. The route he eventually tooks us on after the separation began at 20m and involved no further penetrations. If my friend ran out of air during the safety stop with the shallower no-penetration route I think it's safe to assume the deeper penetration route would have been worse?

If it indeed matches your description it is WILDLY inappropriate for any diver not trained in overhead procedures.

SS Thistlegorm, you can watch videos online, it's one of if not the most famous wreck of all time.

A 30m reel/spool is NOT enough to shoot an SMB from 30m.

Fair enough, though I'd be content knowing I can deploy directly at 20 if needed instead of 10. There's a real chance I'd have deployed above 20 but below 10 in this dive trying to expedite the boat seeing us before we drift too far, and I imagine I'd either have lost it or I'd have been shot up, both of which would have been bad

 

[SlugLife]

Are international standards the same as US standards? I honestly don't know.

What are standards in the US? There may be some relatively common industry practices in the US, and similarities across training agencies, but even then if you dig in standards may not be as standard as you'd think.

The problem was that unexpectedly, someone I felt responsible for was on 50 bar. How could I plan for that?

Setting aside all fault and responsibility, and merely focusing on what YOU can do. During a SCUBA accident/incident it's usually important that you make a safetly-oriented decision and act on it, even if that decision is an imperfect decision. We may be nacred, in an unfamiliar environment, dark, cold, covered in restrictive scuba gear, limited vis, and acting based on limited and imperfect information. But the important thing is to act.

You mention planning which implies what can you do before the incident occurs?

1. The majority of incidents that become accidents seem to follow a "3 strikes your out" pattern. Unexpected things happen during dives. However, as scuba-divers, we plan for the unexpected typically by having redundancy of some sort.
2. Divers normally "plan" to be have enough air to ascend while also sharing air with an OOA diver. Or when solo, one usually has a redundant air-source (also good for non-solo).
3. The dive-op should have had a dive briefing about what divers are supposed to do when separated from the group. Without any specific pre-dive briefing, I'd generally assume you just surface (or DSMB and surface).

#3 being the interesting one. You might have to be more mindful of red flags going forward. "What, we're diving in a current and doing a wreck penetration, but there's no detailed safety briefing?" Regardless of who is at fault, or who is to blame, I want to be 100% (or 99.999...%) sure I'm coming back from every dive alive and well.

For example, this is why I bring a redundant air-source on EVERY dive, regardless of depth or the number of available dive buddies. Even if I'm an idiot who forgot to monitor air (strike 1) while my insta-buddy swam off to look at a lobster (strike 2), that's still only a mild annoyance because I'll just have to surface early.

some of you agree that this is perhaps more dangerous than I previously realised, yet it doesn't seem like I had a better option given the circumstance

If it was dangerous to simply surface as you did, it's a huge problem that the dive op didn't tell you that.

when we booked the liveaboard I assumed they'd have a dedicated instructor or do their training dives separately from the rest of the group. He was put on a position where he had to either tell my friends to skip several of the dives on the trip, or tell the rest of us ro be unguided

It's a terrible experience for both (1) the students, because the instructor isn't focused on them and (2) the normal customers expecting a guide. To me the idea of someone instructing and guiding on the same dive is a gigantic red-flag with flashing lights and a siren attached.

Realistically, only one of those jobs can be done at once, and trying to do both equally, would just mean doing both poorly. Was he doing drills with the students during the dives, making everyone else wait? Did he not do any drills or skill practice during the dives? From the student perspective, these dives are supposed to be pushing divers to new limits at the edge of their skills.

 

[Vicko]

People on this forum have a very strange outlook on international scuba diving industry and the average tourist diver.
In 6 years of guiding I would say that at least 90% of my customers would not be able to safely do a full dive without me (metaphorically) holding their hand. I realised this when I aborted a dive due to a sick customer, came back to the boat with him and had to go back in the water down to 40m to get the rest of his friends. They stayed on the bottom because they were afraid of doing a blue water ascent.That is the normal, average diver for the past 20 years.

Trust me dives are a standard because divers in warm water destinations, that produce the most new divers AND INSTRUCTORS (SE Asia, Egypt, Central America), are not taught to be independent divers.

When you are guiding such divers you can't afford to take your eyes off of them, going into a swim trough without making sure that everyone is following you is irresponsible, letting students get more than a fin stroke away from you is downright dangerous.

 

[The Chairman]

but even then if you dig in standards may not be as standard as you'd think.

If you only knew what I was thinking.

In 6 years of guiding I would say that at least 90% of my customers would not be able to safely do a full dive without me (metaphorically) holding their hand.

This is an indictment of the industry as a whole. I taught and guided in the Keys for 10/12 years, and this was not my experience. Fewer than half the dives were below 60FSW, and that was done for a reason. For the deeper wrecks, divers were always briefed on where to ascend, and even more importantly, HOW to ascend if you missed your ascent point. The Speigel Grove was the worst as far as inept divers being swept away, even though they were briefed over and over. While many of the divers would follow the leader, most could finish the dive on their own if needed. This is really true when we have an Invasion. EVERYONE at an Invasion could easily dive on their own, but they don't want to. We have lots of fun together.

 

[SlugLife]

I'm definitely taking this lesson home, e.g assume every dive is an unguided dive. Thanks all

I've read numerous stories, and even seen posts on this board, from people with almost zero experience, rushed through a "dive master" program, given no mentorship, and made a dive guide. Also stories of dive-guides leading groups into dangerous or beyond their training.

If you only knew what I was thinking.

Last time I pointed mind-reader device at you, I had to go to therapy.

 

[The Chairman]

Last time I pointed mind-reader device at you, I had to go to therapy.

It's only really bad if your therapist had to see a therapist as well... jus' sayin'.

 

[FreqFlier]

OW's on LOB.... that's a recipe by itself. Going for AOW after 2 dives? Yet another recipe...

it appears the instructor made the majority of errors here

​

@OctopusLover - I assume you guys were on air? Couldn't find a word about that. Most LOBs are promoting Nitrox.
You should have raised a red flag when instructor said he'll act as a DM for a group of 9 too in addition to teaching. That's probably the only thing I would blame you directly for not doing.
Air @ 30m does not give you much time to wander around to begin with.
Instructor/(DM?) failed to give you exit strategy
Did your OW friends do AOW e-learning or in-class learning before diving to 30m (past 18m)?
Instructor has to instruct, not to guide dives for the whole group. Absolute no-no as clearly stated by many. He/she should be suspended for leaving students completely unattended in a dangerous setting (deep wreck, current, etc) and knowing one of them was already low on air.
Wreck penetration during AOW? Another no-no

 

[OctopusLover]

I assume you guys were on air? Couldn't find a word about that. Most LOBs are promoting Nitrox.

We were on 30% Nitrox. NDL was no issue on this dive.

You should have raised a red flag when instructor said he'll act as a DM for a group of 9 too in addition to teaching. That's probably the only thing I would blame you directly for not doing.

Not sure how I'd go about that, we are on an 8 day liveaboard, 9 people onboard and only one instructor. If I opt out of this I may as well opt out of the entire liveaboard or at least until my friends were certified.

When we booked, we were aware some dives were challenging and it said minimum 30 dives. We told them we trusted the instructor to decide what dives were too much, and my friends would skip those dives. Not sure if this was passed on to the instructor or not, but during the initial briefing he seemed only concerned with whether my friends would be ready or not for the last day dives to brothers island due to currents and sharks, which he said he'd decide if they were ready or not after a few days of diving.

For the record, we all did those dives even after this happened, my friend was low on air again on all those dives and instead of the whole group ascending, he left the rest of us on the wall and took my friend to the boat then returned.

What's even more mysterious to me is that all the adult male divers including me were using a 15L tank. My friend was told by the instructor to not use 15L on day 1 because he should learn his buoyancy on 12L, and then repeatedly denied the 15L tank on the basis that he should stick to what he started with given he's a beginner still perfecting his buoyancy. I assume the instructor just wanted an excuse to finish the dives earlier, and by the end we had had this conversation so many times with him he just didn't want to back down. I definitely won't make this mistake again and demand what I think is right equipment wise the next time

Did your OW friends do AOW e-learning or in-class learning before diving to 30m (past 18m)?

They did, they were asked to do all their e-learning for Nitrox and AOW during the first two days previous to this dive

 

[The Chairman]

We told them we trusted the instructor

Never capitulate your safety to a single person, other than yourself. That's by far the most difficult lesson to learn. Nigh on impossible when you're this new, but it's more important at this stage than at any other. It's bassackwards as an old friend used to say.

The best thing about this is that you survived. It appears that you've got your thinking cap on as well, not wanting this to happen again. Good for you.

Ask questions until you fully understand how to handle low air/no air on any dive. It's OK to ask, even if they get aggravated. My best advice for any diver if you don't feel completely confident is to learn to say "NO!" Any time an instructor/dive buddy/fidiot tells you just to trust them, then it becomes even more effective if you add an expletive in front of the "NO!!!" You need to be the last word on whether to dive or stay safe.