Naval Sonar

[TCDiver1]

how passionate subjects can get distorted. How many of you believe in Global Warming? Read this: http://www.co2science.org/

You have to be very careful of who you believe & why. I'm not saying global warming does not exist but plenty of proof exists that it does not exist like many would like you to believe.

Garibaldi, i promise you that very few on this board would hesitant to make their voice heard if solid evidence was presented
that proved beyond reasonable doubts that this sonar causes the alledged damage. Divers in general tend to be very conservation minded when it comes to our playground. But they also are not easily led to water (pun intended) without proof of water.

I'm with the crowd here, until solid proof is presented, i want our troops protected as well as possible. You may be forgeting there are many good humans floating around out there doing the tough job of protecting our butts. If this sonar helps in that protection then IMO this is a no-brainer.

 

[JDostal]

Me personally? I'm all for this (the Navy's actions, that is).

Feel free to flame away. I'll ignore pointless or simply insulting comments.

I'm too much of a wuss to sign up for the military. I have friends and family in the military. I'm glad that we have a military, and that they are strong enough to protect our country. Yes, there are tradeoffs. But, sometimes, I feel it's worth it.

Not much of a post, but I just had to let my opinion be known.

 

[Rickg]

The following URL has a great deal of background info on LFA.

http://www.surtass-lfa-eis.com/

Rickg

 

[pdoege]

As far as I know there are no super quiet subs outside of the U.S. fleets.

We have the Seawolfs. All 2 of them.

The fUSSR theoretically had some, but they are our friends now. I don't think they can pose much of a threat. Have they been out of port recently?

Sorry, I've been out of the bubblehead community for a long time now.

Peter

edit: fixed typo

 

[saying]

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...


...the Navy has provided substantial research...

The Navy can afford to. They need to justify that budget somehow.

With enough money you could get Steven Hawking to issue a statement that the universe is actually made of monkey snot.

 

[Rickg]

pdoege once bubbled...
As far as I know there are no super quiet subs outside of the U.S. fleets.

We have the Seawolfs. All 2 of them.



Peter,

You are correct in that the US probably has the quietest nuclear subs these days. Unfortunately, there are a lot of VERY quiet diesel subs that are very difficult (read quiet) targets.

Rickg

 

[pdoege]

The problem is that this sonar is sold as a mechanism to detect quiet subs.

The only quiet nuclear subs are in the U.S. fleet.

This leaves SSKs. SSKs in blue water are a live fire exercise. That leaves SSKs in the littorals.

The system is constrained to low power operation within 12miles of the coast, so littoral operation is probably out.

The detection method of choice in the littorals seems to be high frequency dipping sonar, not low frequency towed.

I would say off hand that this new sonar is a solution in search of a problem, irregardless of its ecological impact if any.

Just my opinion,
Peter

 

[Dr Deco]

With Reference To drbill:

I do not have any comments on the scientific aspects of the sonar device other than what has been posted. On the “mentalities” of scientists and engineers, I can add a few words to his. These have been gleaned from graduate school and on, and we are thus speaking of about forty years.


Scientists are not necessarily objective at all times in my experience. They have money to obtain, deadlines to meet, and many, most definitely, have an agenda.

The free and open exchange as taught in school science classes does not exist in the day-to-day world of professional science.

Many apparently have a messiah complex; they definitely know what is best - - for everyone.

Many get in over their head and cannot get out. They are trapped and perpetuate the problems.

Many must control everything, cannot delegate, and become overwhelmed. The decisions are poor.

Some simply rise to their level of incompetence in the management of a program.

A few have received their management authority because of the buddy system and were good sycophants or toadies.

Many ask for assistance from those that will return the “right” answer. The errors propagate.

Some will make very unwise decisions naively thinking that money saved is always of value to a program in the long term.

I too once thought that those at the top were generally well informed and in control. Rubbish


I cannot give any examples currently. Those who read the newspapers will see examples therein. Following my exit interview, possibly I will say more.

Mike Powell (a.k.a. Dr Deco)

 

[saying]

Dr Deco once bubbled...
A bunch of cool stuff

I hope to be succinct like that someday.

 

[Braunbehrens]

Dear NRDC BioGems Defender,

We need your immediate support as we go to trial in a case that is critical to
the future of marine mammals on this planet. Three weeks from now, NRDC
litigators will face off against the Bush administration in federal court with
the safety of entire populations of whales and dolphins at risk.

This long-awaited courtroom battle is the culmination of our eight-year
campaign to stop the U.S. Navy from illegally deploying its Low Frequency
Active (LFA) sonar system -- a new technology that blasts ocean habitats with
noise so intense it can maim, deafen and even kill marine mammals.

I hope you'll go to
https://www.nrdc.org/joinGive/join/lfa.asp right now to make an online
emergency contribution in support of this historic case.

What's at stake? Consider: last year, the Bush administration issued the Navy a
permit to deploy LFA sonar over 75 percent of the world's oceans and to harass
or injure up to 12 percent of every single marine mammal species found anywhere
in this vast expanse of ocean!

But before that disaster could unfold, your support enabled NRDC to race to
court last fall and win a dramatic eleventh-hour reprieve for thousands of
whales and dolphins. A federal judge blocked global deployment of the sonar
system until a full trial could be held and all the evidence heard.

That all-important proceeding will begin on June 30th. It will determine
whether this dangerous technology is finally unleashed upon our planet's
oceans -- or whether it should be permanently blocked until the Navy obeys the
law and demonstrates that LFA would not cause serious harm to ocean life.

Scientists are warning that LFA sonar may threaten the very survival of entire
populations of whales, some already teetering on the brink of extinction. At
close range, the system's shock waves are so intense they can destroy a whale's
eardrums, cause its lungs to hemorrhage, and even kill.

Further away, LFA noise can cause permanent hearing loss in marine mammals
after a single transmission. At 40 miles away, LFA noise is still so intense it
can disrupt the mating, feeding, nursing and other essential activities of
marine mammals.

Two years ago, the mere testing of high-intensity Navy sonar in mid-frequency
range caused a mass stranding of whales in the Bahamas. Whales from at least
three different species died, their inner ears bleeding from the explosive
power of the sonar signal.

Just last month, a group of biologists off the coast of Washington state
witnessed a "stampede" of distressed marine mammals as a U.S. destroyer,
operating a powerful mid-frequency sonar system, passed through. Over the next
several days, ten porpoises were discovered stranded on nearby beaches.

And the dangers go beyond marine mammals. In preparing for the upcoming trial,
NRDC has uncovered the shocking results of the Navy's own LFA research on human
scuba divers. One Navy test subject was exposed to 14 minutes of LFA noise at
160 decibels -- far below the level of 235 decibels at which the actual LFA
system will be operating. The diver experienced uncontrollable shaking in his
limbs and lapsed into a seizure-like state that recurred periodically for days.
The Navy's report described him as a "casualty."

The Bush administration wants us to believe that the impacts of LFA will be
negligible! Launching a massive acoustic assault on the world's oceans is not
negligible. Threatening communities of whales, dolphins and humans with injury
and death is not negligible.

The Bush administration's position on LFA is arrogant, inhumane and, almost
certainly, illegal. But we cannot stop the deployment of this technological
menace unless we have the financial resources to fight this courtroom battle to
the very end and win a permanent ban.

Again, I urge you to help by going to
https://www.nrdc.org/joinGive/join/lfa.asp right now and making an online
emergency contribution.

With your help, we can make sure that no more whales have to suffer and die
from high-power sonar. Let me know you'll stand with us at this critical moment
in the fight to protect all ocean life. Thank you.

Sincerely,

John H. Adams
President
Natural Resources Defense Council