My Venture into GUE - Another view

[Adobo]

Seems like that was wasted time in a long day. So you were tired, but every hour wasn't used to its fullest potential.

I am not sure I understand. Did the class simply have too many students for the amount of instructors involved? I thought GUE has some standards regarding student to instructor ratios.

Locally, I have never heard of GUE classes that had any more than 3 students per 1 instructor (not intern but instructor). I think the last one that ran had 2 instructors for 4 students. And they had a separate videographer as well.

 

[Jax]

Locally, I have never heard of GUE classes that had any more than 3 students per 1 instructor (not intern but instructor). I think the last one that ran had 2 instructors for 4 students. And they had a separate videographer as well.

I've been hearing that a lot since my class report, as well.

 

[Gombessa]

Hope that helps to put your pre-Fundie skills in perspective.

IMO, you look quite good in the video!
The only thing I'd say, other than the back kick, is that you seem to have the "hug the floor" syndrome that a lot of people have when they're spending supreme concentration on maintaining buoyancy. It's easier to judge and adjust your depth when you're 1/2 foot from the bottom, but as you get more comfortable, you can do so higher in the water column.

However, I wouldn't got as far as to imply that you need anywhere near this level of proficiency to either enjoy, get a rec pass, or get a tech pass going into Fundies. There are a lot of factors involved of course, but on a general level, I'd say what I see in this video (this is you POST-fundies, correct?) is IMHO several times over what you'd ideally need for the class.

Another thing I'd say is that, there are many, many ways to get dinged in Fundies. I've heard of people being failed for "letting" a buddy go to a dead reg, lacking team communication, failing to stop and correct repeated errors (not for committing the errors in the first place), etc. You're right in that introducing personal and team skills really stresses buoyancy and trim, IME it's really how you approach and handle that stress (slow down, reset, correct, continue, all while working together) that determines how you're evaluated on the given skills. What I really liked about Fundamentals is that judgment and decision-making is valued at least as much as buoyancy/trim/skills.

 

[rjack321]

I am not sure I understand. Did the class simply have too many students for the amount of instructors involved? I thought GUE has some standards regarding student to instructor ratios.

Jax can correct me if I'm wrong, but her's was 1:6 and the instructor must be in "direct control" at all times. So max students in the pool was 3 at a time with 3 sitting out. So most of her days had 35-45mins of time in the water total. Seems like a collossal waste of time dinking around to me. Reduce the class size, bring in an assistant, make the official class 6hrs with 2 more hours of private pool time, whatever. But you don't learn to dive sitting on the edge of a pool with the agency lawyer.

 

[Lobzilla]

However, I wouldn't got as far as to imply that you need anywhere near this level of proficiency to either enjoy, get a rec pass, or get a tech pass going into Fundies. There are a lot of factors involved of course, but on a general level, I'd say what I see in this video (this is you POST-fundies, correct?) is IMHO several times over what you'd ideally need for the class.

What do you base this opinion on. Are you a GUE instructor or have you taken a class with our instructors?

Why do you ignore the eye witness accounts and the comments of experience DIR divers like rjack321 and pfcAJ about the additional task loading of drills and holding a team together. Have you ever seen a total CF because neither of the team members had the skills that team diving requires?

Our instructor on record mentioned in the initial briefing that it not his responsibility to fail us but ours to hold ourselves fairly against the published standards. By day three (Jax, correct me if I am wrong), four of the six class attendees agreed that they are not going to meet the standards in the allotted time. We reorganized the teams and our schedule to give the remaining 2 divers a chance to pass. They threw the towel during the checkout dive. And they were better on that day than I was in the video from last Saturday (third training dive past Fundies).

Please read Dan Volker's comments and ask yourself whether it would be more efficient to 'beef up' the GUE primer a bit for the folks that do not care for a pass and honestly advertise the Fundies with the prerequisites that are mandatory to pass.

I agree that there are other ways to blow it but that did not explain why we looked in the pool like mosquitoes buzzing around a light bulb rather than looking like a team.

My assessment is that if you do not walk into the Fundies with solid team, buoyancy, and trim skills you are not going to walk out with a pass. The time in the class is too short to pick those skills up and the scuba ferry is not going to hand them to you at night either.

Watering down the Fundie standards by more lenient evaluation would just push the pain up-line into the tech or cave classes.

 

[Adobo]

What do you base this opinion on. Are you a GUE instructor or have you taken a class with our instructors?

Why do you ignore the eye witness accounts and the comments of experience DIR divers like rjack321 and pfcAJ about the additional task loading of drills and holding a team together. Have you never seen a total CF because neither of the team members had the skills that team diving requires?

Our instructor on record mentioned in the initial briefing that it not his responsibility to fail us but ours to hold ourselves fairly against the published standards. By day three (Jax, correct me if I am wrong), four of the six class attendees agreed that they are not going to meet the standards in the allotted time. We reorganized the teams and our schedule to give the remaining 2 divers a chance to pass. They threw the towel during the checkout dive. And they were better on that day than I was in the video from last Saturday.

Is it me or are some of the east coast guys super intense when it comes to fundies? I mean, is there even room for fun anymore?

Please read Dan Volker's comments and ask yourself whether it would be more efficient to 'beef up' the GUE primer a bit for the folks that do not care for a pass and honestly advertise the Fundies with the prerequisites that are mandatory to pass.

I agree that there are other ways to blow it but that did not explain why we looked in the pool like mosquitoes buzzing around a light bulb rather than looking like a team.

My assessment is that if you do not walk into the Fundies with solid team, buoyancy, and trim skills you are not going to walk out with a pass. The time in the class is too short to pick those skills up and the scuba ferry is not going to hand them to you at night either.

Watering down the Fundie standards by more lenient evaluation would just push the pain up-line into the tech or cave classes.

I thought Fundies was the first class where they teach a lot of these concepts. How are you supposed to walk into the class with solid buoyancy and trim skills when you have never been taught these things? Can these skills somehow be learned through eClasses? Are there videos or something that you are required to watch and skills you are to practice in preparation for fundies?

Pretty soon, we will need a workshop to adequately prepare divers to take the primer.

 

[TSandM]

I do think a lot of the Monterey divers get picked up by the trained people there fairly early, and a lot of you seem to take Essentials from Don before you do Fundies -- and you form your teams before class. All of these things make the class easier and more likely to be successful. But I have to admit the level of intensity of this Fundies class really raised my eyebrows. In my class, none of the six of us passed, but there was nowhere near the amount of misery or anger, either during the class or after it.

There were problems with this one, I think.

 

[rjack321]

What do you base this opinion on. Are you a GUE instructor or have you taken a class with our instructors?

Why do you ignore the eye witness accounts and the comments of experience DIR divers like rjack321 and pfcAJ about the additional task loading of drills and holding a team together. Have you ever seen a total CF because neither of the team members had the skills that team diving requires?

Our instructor on record mentioned in the initial briefing that it not his responsibility to fail us but ours to hold ourselves fairly against the published standards. By day three (Jax, correct me if I am wrong), four of the six class attendees agreed that they are not going to meet the standards in the allotted time. We reorganized the teams and our schedule to give the remaining 2 divers a chance to pass. They threw the towel during the checkout dive. And they were better on that day than I was in the video from last Saturday (third training dive past Fundies).

Please read Dan Volker's comments and ask yourself whether it would be more efficient to 'beef up' the GUE primer a bit for the folks that do not care for a pass and honestly advertise the Fundies with the prerequisites that are mandatory to pass.

I agree that there are other ways to blow it but that did not explain why we looked in the pool like mosquitoes buzzing around a light bulb rather than looking like a team.

My assessment is that if you do not walk into the Fundies with solid team, buoyancy, and trim skills you are not going to walk out with a pass. The time in the class is too short to pick those skills up and the scuba ferry is not going to hand them to you at night either.

Watering down the Fundie standards by more lenient evaluation would just push the pain up-line into the tech or cave classes.

Chill, please. Its a class, its meant to teach. Yours may have fallen short in various ways, but GUE is receptive to your feedback via the QA forms (I can't recall if you did that or not).

There's are boatload's of divers out there who feel they need to practice ALOT before this class more than any other (probably in the history of diving) because they are insanely focused on "the pass". But that ends up being counterproductive, learning poor habits, getting all bunched up and twitterpatted. This is supposed to be fun. It can be, just not with one lone instructor in that format with the buddies you had.

 

[Gombessa]

What do you base this opinion on. Are you a GUE instructor or have you taken a class with our instructors?

My assessment is that if you do not walk into the Fundies with solid team, buoyancy, and trim skills you are not going to walk out with a pass. The time in the class is too short to pick those skills up and the scuba ferry is not going to hand them to you at night either.

That is why I said, "On a general level." In my own experience in these classes, in my diving with pre- and post-fundies students, and in many discussions with Fundamentals students and GUE instructors, I've seen a general consensus in what is desired or ideal. I understand how you feel about your class, and I have no issue in the event the req's for your class really are different from the "norm," but I posted because it seems you are extrapolating the conclusion from your class to ALL Fundamentals classes: "Hope that helps to put your pre-Fundie skills in perspective." "My assessment is that if you do not walk into the Fundies with solid team, buoyancy, and trim skills you are not going to walk out with a pass." IMHO such an expansive conclusion is unwarranted based on the multitude of contrary experiences out there. And since this is a discussion forum, I'm posting a different view. It sounds like you took my post in a very personal manner; it wasn't intended as such.

And since you bring it up, if you had said something more along the lines, "My assessment is that if you do not walk into the Fundies with solid team, buoyancy, and trim skills you are not going to walk out with a pass, from our instructors" (or "in our class") I wouldn't have said anything; that's a perfectly valid opinion. But I fail to see how one needs to be either a GUE instructor or have "taken a class with your particular instructors" in order to discuss the level of preparedness one should expect for Fundamentals in general, which is how you seemed to have framed your own statements?

 

[SelkieDVM]

I do think a lot of the Monterey divers get picked up by the trained people there fairly early, and a lot of you seem to take Essentials from Don before you do Fundies -- and you form your teams before class. All of these things make the class easier and more likely to be successful. But I have to admit the level of intensity of this Fundies class really raised my eyebrows. In my class, none of the six of us passed, but there was nowhere near the amount of misery or anger, either during the class or after it.

There were problems with this one, I think.

I agree, but speaking for myself I would have to say it was 95% self-imposed. It was part physiological (i.e. being sick and tired all week) and part psychological, just the type A part of me. The instructors and other GUE divers in fact tried to talk me down from the stressful place that I found myself, and I was able to relax a bit (just a bit) afterward. At the same time, while I really try to focus on what was positive about the experience, there's always a little part of me that equates not passing with failing. I will admit that I would have prefered a smaller class and more quality in-water time. In fact, aren't Bob and Errol limiting their next Fundies class together to three students? It seems the issues haven't gone unnoticed.