My Journey into UTD Ratio Deco

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And your defence of deep stops/VPM isn't any of those things??

Too funny.

I have science on my side to defend VPM-B.

The invalid interpretations that some make and use to attack VPM-B, or in this case... the invalid assumptions on the Spinsi test, all those are easily shown to be false, or wrongly placed. That is what we are doing here - debunking yet another round of "'blame it all on deep stops".

Brian, Do you have any valid suggestions why the Spinsi test has such a wide variance in its bio-markers?

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Just wanted to share a thought on the matter, which I'll get to towards the bottom of the post.

I personally think it's clear that UTD don't promote or use RD as an algorithm but rather a starting point from where to adapt - I know that's been said a thousand times, but I've brought it up as I think it's particularly relevant in the context of the Spisni-study, which I'll get back to that in the bottom of this post, after a quick discussion on the Spisni-study itself.

But first:

The setpoints no longer work for 60-120+min BTs

The "interrim" setpoints (1:1, 1:2, 1:3) aren't designed to do bottom times beyond 120min, "the book" is actually perfectly clear about that.
Nor are the divers who learn those setpoints trained to do such dives - by the time you're doing those bottom times, you're in Cascade Deco-land (Tech Gold, i.e. Full Tech).

We can, and often do, talk about scenarios where adaptations to Ratio Deco (incl. Cascade) make sense, but I think that's a different thing from knocking on the interrim setpoints for not being something they're actually not even made out to be.

NEDU demonstrated that extra mid-deco-ascent was counter productive with such statistical power that they had to halt the study before all the dives were even done.

I think in order to draw NEDU into it in this fashion, we'll also need to be fair and point out how that statistical power (which is elaborated on in this article) was derived;

In order to make a clear result, trial adaptations (mentioned below) were made, and I would argue to a degree that obscures the picture somewhat in relation to the questions we're asking the study.
For instance, the divers in that study were probably bordeline hypothermic (I can argue how that may very well have had an impact), they used air for the bottom portion of the dive, and more importantly, they used air for the decompression portion of the dive.
These factors helped answer the questions which were being asked of the study, absolutely, and were probably necessary towards that goal - but in my opinion, they also mean that the study's potential limitations should be mentioned in this context.

Statistical footwork aside (everyone's a statistician!) NEDU did prove that deep stops aren't the black-and-white, universal solution that they were - for lack of better phrasing - generally thought to be, but must be seen in a context. I don't personally think there's anything novel in that, but it's worth reiterating and pointing out that NEDU proved it.
It also did show slow tissue on-gassing as a probable counterpoint to them (deep stops).

This is not to try and belittle the work;
However, I think there's more to it, and this is where Spisni comes into play, as mentioned above:

Spisi illustrated some of the metabolic impacts of that extra time.

Namely, CCL5-response.
If we assume that inflammation has a significant or determining role to play in this, then I would think it's reasonable to assume that it's by way of bubble-induced platelet aggregation (BIPA), and further by way of CCL5-activation.
I don't think there's anything radical in working on that hypothesis, at least.

As we recall, CCL5-response levels are genetically determined.

That is, in addition to slow tissue on-gassing (and more general factors that we can't say to have a different impact depending on choice of algorithm/deep stop emphasis, and therefore won't take into account here - such as hydration level, fatigue, fitness level, etc.), we might have an element of genetic disposition.

That is, in the same way as we know to have "CO2-retainers", we might have "deep stoppers".
If so, it should be possible to show in a trial a correlation across CCL5-response and VGE across two groups differing only in CCL5-response predisposition.

I think that's an interesting thought.

In either case, it would mean that one algorithm or deep stop emphasis cannot be universally optimal across persons, just like it wouldn't be across dive conditions.

I think that's worth keeping in mind in the debate.
 
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I have science on my side to defend VPM-B.
.

Sigh. Let me go down to the store and get more popcorn.

The guy who disagrees with Ross here most often has a few things on his signature lines that Ross does not have: MB ChB, PhD, DipDHM, DipOccMed, FUHM, FANZCA. His job title is "Head of Department,Department of Anaesthesiology" for a School of Medicine. Perhaps oddly, nobody gives away the qualifications or position he holds. He's an active CCR diver as well as a well-known researcher into various aspects of diving science with a number of published peer-reviewed papers on the topic to his credit. I am of course talking about Dr. Simon Mitchell.

Balanced against that, Ross is the author of well-known dive planning software products that I personally find excellent to use for dive planning and gas mixing, but for which I have not used the VPM-based schedules in years. Ross has no peer-reviewed papers on diving science as far as I know.

Be careful who you choose to believe. Seemingly infinite threads can easily be found here on SB with back-and-forth arguments between Ross and Simon.
 
Be careful who you choose to believe. Seemingly infinite threads can easily be found here on SB with back-and-forth arguments between Ross and Simon.

It's not a matter of believing one or the other. Both have arguments, some of questionable validity, it is up to us to understand what seems possible and what isn't. I don't think that one should (nor do I think that is what Simon would want) blindly trust one or the other.

That being said, it's pretty damn obvious who's righter. (And not right, only less wrong)
 
It's not a matter of believing one or the other. Both have arguments, some of questionable validity, it is up to us to understand what seems possible and what isn't. I don't think that one should (nor do I think that is what Simon would want) blindly trust one or the other.

That being said, it's pretty damn obvious who's righter. (And not right, only less wrong)
That is probably a very good way to phrase it as the often quoted line from all involved in serious research about decompression is that "all models are wrong but some are useful". The trick is not finding the right one but finding the ones that consensus and science has found best approach "real life".
 
How is this decompression schedule "bad" as you say?

Because it is a "deep stop" profile, which I consider bad.

UTD RD is not an algorithm, it's an ascent strategy. You can change the ascent based on a variety of factors. A computer doesn't know all of these factors. For example, are you stressed, cold, didn't have much sleep the night before, dehydrated, etc.? You should probably adjust your profile based on these factors, and some of them can change while on the dive.

Isn't RD an ascent strategy based on algorithms? If it's not an algorithm, how do you apply it consistently? If you change things on the fly rather than sticking to the ratio, are you still using RD? Do you have any research that shows how to all those factors you mentioned impact your deco and what you should specifically do to modify your deco schedule to compensate for them (other than intuitively doing more deco to be more "conservative" and arbitrarily picking where you do that deco)?

addressing your fast tissues with deep stops is far more important and less risky.

Any real science to back this up?
 
Hi Michael,

I'd like to answer the questions you've posted, with my personal view on the matter, if you don't mind:

Isn't RD an ascent strategy based on algorithms? If it's not an algorithm, how do you apply it consistently? If you change things on the fly rather than sticking to the ratio, are you still using RD?

It incorporates the various aspects of decompression knowledge, such as tissue supersaturation as well as bubble mechanics.
The "interrim" setpoints are not designed particularly to solely mimic a specific algorithm, if that's the question (more on that below).

As for how it's applied consistently, it's not - not all divers are the same and not all dives are the same.
I adapt differently if I'm feeling cold, have a suit leak, on my twentieth dive that week, etc., and I really don't have the same physical profile as a 60-year old who smokes, hydrates poorly, doesn't exercise vigorously and/or eats unhealthy food.

But, there is a "standardized framework" (I've called them "interrim setopoints", i.e. 1:1, 1:2, 1:3) in the training materials, which are referred to as a starting point from where dive teams are encouraged to develop their own strategies depending on their diving and growing experience.
Those incorporate other factors, such as practical considerations like gas volume.

I hope that answers the question.

The last question, are you still using RD if you change things: absolutely - at least how it's taught by UTD, it's encouraged to play the software and compare different options, and make adaptations. They're trying to get divers/students to engage with their decompression. It's perfectly possible to adapt shallower.

Do you have any research that shows how to all those factors you mentioned impact your deco and what you should specifically do to modify your deco schedule to compensate for them (other than intuitively doing more deco to be more "conservative" and arbitrarily picking where you do that deco)?

Do you?

I mean, it would be swell to know exactly how our thermal state or hydration level impacts our off-gassing ability.
No solution, algorithm, computer or table accounts for it or has a built-in function that'll help you if your suit floods.

I personally believe that cold exposure's impact on off-gassing is exponential over time rather than linear, which gives an indication to what I'd do if my suit floods - it also tells you why I'm reluctant to uncritically copy/paste the NEDU-results into my strategy. But I'm perfectly aware that there's no proof to support (or disprove) my personal position on the matter.

To the best of my knowledge, we'll all need to accept that there's no definitive answer to that question, whichever solution we go with. At least nothing scientifically satisfying.
 
I personally believe that cold exposure's impact on off-gassing is exponential over time rather than linear
Interesting. What kind of data and correlations do you have that supports an exponential relationship (i.e. a factor of ten for each x units of cold exposure) between cold exposure and offgassing? I'd love to see them.
 
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