My journey into tech

[lowviz]

I see this panicking dver thing actually realistic? Has anyone met one? ...//...

Are you serious?

Yes, twice. Almost been one myself once a long time ago.

 

[boulderjohn]

Scuba divers do panic, as this one did. I have written about this episode before. IMO, she was told to end the dive and ascend, at which point she dumped all her air from the BCD, as divers are so often incorrectly told to do, and began to sink. rather than put air back in her BCD, she flailed with her arms to try to stop sinking.

That can happen, and a rescue diver can assist without getting mugged. As I said before, if your mask is pulled off while you are making a conscious effort to assist a diver, you are doing something wrong.

 

[KenGordon]

We had panicked divers at the surface as well as at depth.

Are you serious?

Yes, twice. Almost been one myself once a long time ago.

I was asking in the context of the surface. Maybe I should have quoted more. The diver in the video is relatively calm at the surface.

I have read lots of incident reports of divers getting to the surface and disappearing but cannot remember one where the victim mauled the rescuer.

 

[lowviz]

I was asking in the context of the surface. Maybe I should have quoted more. The diver in the video is relatively calm at the surface. ...//...

Oh, I did misunderstand you.

She appeared relatively calm at the surface, but was still brain-locked in panic. Note at the very end of the clip she is still trying to shed her gear that is keeping her afloat.

I've always wondered about why distress is so different on the surface vs. underwater. My several PSD courses all reinforced that drowning on the surface is not screaming and thrashing. Below is an excerpt from Public Safety Diving, Hendrick & Zaferes (pg 235)

"In reality, drowning is a silent event. A drowning person no longer has the ability to scream, raise his arms or head out of the water, or struggle about. A victim might descend to the bottom within seconds without resurfacing, or he might bob for up to a minute or so, but in either case, there is little struggling and noise."

In my opinion, she was "there" at the surface. She did not appear the least bit calm to me.

 

[KenGordon]

What I a man getting at is whether hassling a rescuer with mask or regulator removal is realistic. Is it specified in any instructor manual or standards?

 

[lowviz]

I'm not an instructor and never will be. I can't answer your question.

 

[boulderjohn]

What I a man getting at is whether hassling a rescuer with mask or regulator removal is realistic. Is it specified in any instructor manual or standards?

You are taught how to approach a thrashing and panicked diver at the surface in a way that prevents that diver from doing any of that to you. Most importantly, you should be taught that a thrashing diver at the surface is not in any real danger, so there is no need to do anything drastic immediately.

You are similarly taught to deal with a panicked diver underwater in a way that is safe for you. A panicked diver underwater desperately wants to get to the surface, as you saw in this video. They have no interest in taking your mask off. They will often, in fact, reject their own equipment, as you saw in the video.

An OOA diver will sometimes grab the regulator in your mouth. If they do, you open your mouth so you don't lose your teeth, and you use your own alternate. Usually the OOA diver will calm down once the regulator has been obtained, but sometimes they will continue to fight to get to the surface, even though they now have air.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

What I a man getting at is whether hassling a rescuer with mask or regulator removal is realistic. Is it specified in any instructor manual or standards?

It is not in any of the manuals or standards guides I have. But then I only have them for 9 different agencies and a few may be out of date. Having your mask ripped off or reg torn out is realistic IF you try to aid someone the wrong way as BoulderJohn pointed out. There is also the remote possibility that someone may suddenly freak out as you are calmly talking to them and are within arms reach.
I have a couple people who make very good "panicked divers" in that scenario. They are actually quite scary in the way they do it. I have yet to have any of them actually manage to grab someone I have taught how to approach a panicked diver and rip the mask off, tear out the reg, rip off an arm, etc. Come close? Yes. But if the rescuer approaches correctly and uses their head it is a remote chance of them getting into trouble.
One of the persons I use is 6' 8" and 285 lbs with arms like an orangutang. The other is a female about 5ft 4 and 110 soaking wet. She is actually more of a risky proposition because her size tends to make people less wary. She is also very fast and that has caught more than one person off guard.
If someone is that violent, once you have their weights off and BC inflated you can push them away and observe from out of arms reach until others arrive or they wear themselves out.
I did have one instructor simulate a panicked diver and go completely off script and do what no panicked diver will do. Chase a student underwater from the surface to try and get them. I ripped him a new one and told him I would never work with him again or advise any student to take a class with him. He was just a sadistic SOB.

 

[KenGordon]

So do the manuals specify a thrashing diver as the victim?

How much of this is instructor made up and how much mandated by the agency?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

SEI Instructor Guide specifies practice with an "actively struggling" victim. It is left to the instructor based on their experience to coach the "victim" as to how much struggling is to take place. I have seen a couple full blown panicked people in the water. Not just divers. I base my coaching on those observations. One of the definitions of panic is the absence of rational thought. It is also the "fight or flight response". Panicked people in general seem to gain strength and are not able to readily reason with.
The SDI Standards require a diver to respond to "early panic symptoms" but does not specify the degree or specific examples of the behavior. SDI does, however, give instructors wide latitude in teaching believing that they are the best people to evaluate students, conditions, and teach to those.
The other standards I have are not all current and I don't teach through those agencies.
My own Rescue Diver course was a PADI class in 2005 and the instructor employed some good actors for the scenario.