My First Lion Fish Meal

[1erCRU]

Ah, well, let's cut to the chase, shall we? What agenda are you pushing? That we leave the lionfish on the reefs in Cozumel alone? It ain't gonna happen. We (most of us, anyway) don't agree with your premise or your "evidence" and neither do the authorities on Cozumel.

Perhaps the missing agenda is related to the ancient oriental medicine cure for E.D.; utilizing live LF barbs for treatment. Clearly anyone subscribing to this cure would be, understandably, VERY CONCERNED about actions that would limit his new-found :dance2: supply of live barbs and might obfuscate his true agenda to avoid personal embarrassment.

 

[Coral-Reefer]

Trolling? I come as a counterpoint to the senseless killings, which according to many studies, shows it is useless and others showing it has a negative effect the reef. It is just that I have never seen so much excitement in talking about killings on these forums, the non-spearfishing ones in specific. Its as if I have mistakenly came upon the safari big game hunting forum.

Wow. Are you really comparing the hunting of rare and endangered species of african cats with recreational scuba divers killing off one of the most invasive species of reef fish in the caribbean?

I think you miss most of our motivations for enthusiastically killing lionfish. While I can only speak for myself I like to think my feelings are the same for the vast majority of Cozumel divers. I have dove some other reef systems and for reasons of my own, fell in love with the reefs of Cozumel several years ago, as well as the people of the island I have become friends with, both Mexican and ex-pats. While I suspect most of these folks would not actively hunt for fish under the water while diving, our love for the healthy reefs of our adopted home are so dear to us that the thought of losing it can bring tears to our eye's if we thought hard enough about the real possibility of that happening. So, the exitement you claim to witness is not so much the exitement of the kill, but our willingness to go against our firmly held belief of not killing anything we encounter under the surface.

 

[Coral-Reefer]

I don't think the folks here are under the delusion that they can eradicate the species, just that we can help keep our own house as clear as possible of these lionfish, and have tasty meals to boot!

 

[DazedAndConfuzed]

Various types of reef sharks would have been the natural predator for lionfish. But since we have villianized the shark to the point of not caring by the general public, along with exporting our sweatshop/pollution to somebody else to the point their plutocrats starts eating thing that they could not have afforded in their prior life, plus the creation of the demand, driving the factory fishing fleets to vacuum up pretty much every shark that is out there. We end up with no apex predator that would have snatched up a fish that just sits out there in the open, down to as deep as they would reside on, not just limited to the usual rec depth limit that we onl seem to care about.

There is a difference between anecdotal, observational evidence, observational and controlled studies. What's on the video is not anecdotal since it is not selective, nor is the evidence cherry picked. What most people describes are observational evidence. They see more lionfish and describes seeing less other reef fish. The video is beyond that. It is daily observation of growth of algae along with change in external variable such as the introduction or elimination of lionfish. It might not be a extensive controlled study, but nor are there much of that, and everybody jumped to conclusion that the lionfish is the terr0rist of fish. I have said, along with undercurrent's articles, more extensive studies are needed besides the 'I see a lionfish, where are the other fish?' type of anecdotal evidence that is floating around.

 

[cvchief]

I have to dispute your definitions. Anecdotal evidence does not have to be cherry picked or selective, it just has to be non-scientific. People tend to 'like' anecdotal evidence because it seems believable. What the video presents is purely some guy's observation. He may be smart, but he is not using the scientific method. He may even be right, but he does not present proof, only interesting observation that might be worth a study. I don't think anyone is saying this guy is trying 'fool' anyone, just that his observations do not control for anything. Correct me if I am wrong but his offers of proof are: 1. look there are fish, and; 2. Here is me picking algae and here are reefs that aren't normally used that have lionfish and no algae.

And on your political side: We built our industrial base in the 1800's on sweatshops. Now you want to deny those third world countries their own chance to build an industrial base?

 

[mstevens]

Various types of reef sharks would have been the natural predator for lionfish.

Nobody has any way of knowing what "would have been" the case. In any event, nobody has seen caribbean sharks predating on lionfish (as opposed to eating ones given to them). There are places in the caribbean where sharks are quite plentiful, so why have we not seen this? It's because caribbean lionfish are an invasive species and none of the local predators has a way of dealing with them and may not even see them as prey.

While we're at it, I know of no evidence that sharks are natural predators of lionfish anywhere in the world. Can you provide some? (Evidence - not YouTube videos.) In fact, I'd welcome evidence of ANYTHING that consistently predates upon adult lionfish in its natural distribution. It appears as if cornetfish might predate upon juvenile lionfish in the mediterranean, but they're too small to hunt any but the smallest lionfish.

What's on the video is not anecdotal

Yeah, it is. Your distinction between anecdote and observation is aritificial.

Back to food: given the choice among various tasty species, you appear to have come down on the side of hunting naturally-occuring local caribbean species for food instead of lionfish. Why?

 

[tridacna]

I think that we have all been trolled by a 12 year old kid. He got us pretty well. Good one Lwanker.You win.

 

[Pelagicsal]

12? The name-calling had me guessing even younger.

And the descriptions of lone lionfish that have to be searched for because they are hiding in the reef convinced me that experience diving in areas of infestation was non-existent...

 

[DazedAndConfuzed]

Back to food: given the choice among various tasty species, you appear to have come down on the side of hunting naturally-occuring local caribbean species for food instead of lionfish. Why?

I didn't 'not support' indigenous people fishing for their own needs, but when outsiders like PADI comes and tell them this is the fish you have to kill and all the foreigners comes and start killing them.

Its not unlike the african wildlife preservation of endangered species, where it was foreign hunters and their demands for big game body parts that almost wiped them out, but now the conservation societies tells the locals that they can't touch those species, no matter what.

Correct me if I am wrong but his offers of proof are: 1. look there are fish, and; 2. Here is me picking algae and here are reefs that aren't normally used that have lionfish and no algae.

And on your political side: We built our industrial base in the 1800's on sweatshops. Now you want to deny those third world countries their own chance to build an industrial base?

He is not a causual diver that happens to pass by some reef with algae and don't spot any lionfish around, then pass by another reef and saw a lionfish, but then also realized that there is not much algae. There is observation over lengthy period of time of no lionfish=lot of algae, then lionfish appearing=decreased algae, then lionfish decreasing=increased algae. Not 3 passing observations, but seeing cause and effect. You could argue that the inverse, where the lack of algae caused the lionfish to migrate to those reefs (just like the argument of warming earth temp caused the CO2 to rise). Or other causes that just coincide with the algae/lionfish cycle is at play (same as cosmic ray argument on earth temp). But to dismiss it without thinking the need for further study to resolve unanswered questions is just plain denialist.

The multinational industries isn't there to take make sure the 3rd world people are taken of so that they could afford to eat shark fins. Some local plutocrats getting rich is just a byproduct. Don't you remember how Philippines, back in the 90's was going to be the next industrial powerhouse, with their boasting of highly educated, qualified workers for the high tech industry. But the multinational corporations found other cheaper places to mfg their goods and abandoned Philippines like it was the plague, and today, the only thing Philippine could export is their cheap labor to be maids around the world.



All your assumption of my age being 12 or younger, if that is indicative of how you arrive at lionfish's affect on the reefs, must show that you guys arrive at pretty poor conclusions.

The attempt to try to link observational evidence with pseudoscience hearsays indicates your views are hard set already and will discredit any dissenters.

Note, PADI's new lionfish course name is 'Invasive Lionfish Tracker', away from their earlier course name of 'Lionfish Awareness & Elimination'. I wonder why is that?

 

[cvchief]

But to dismiss it without thinking the need for further study to resolve unanswered questions is just plain denialist.

Thanks for agreeing with me that while interesting and certainly worth study, his observations were not a scientific study of the beneficial effects of lionfish.