MSDT Prep Questions

[tursiops]

this is true. I was wondering about all of that because I wanted to pick up several specialties in the MDST course but one instructor stopped me and told me to just pick up 5 then get your 25 certifications then you can self certify all of the rest that you want to teach.

The only issue with that is some of them it would be nice to have some one that is certified in them to teach them instead of me just reading a book and doing a dive then signing my self off on them. But thats just my take on it based on what i have found out so please correct me if I am wrong.

There is no reason to get MSDT unless you intend to proceed up through the PADI levels; however, there IS value is getting certified to teach five specialties, because that means more money from more teaching and more opportunities to teach, and more rapidly get your 25 certs. You DO want the 25 certs so you can self-certify. So, MSDT makes sense, as do the five main specialties.

Unless you have a LOT of diving experience with a LOT of good divers in an LOT of different circumstances, then getting some CD input on how to teach a specialty is indeed worth while. Reading alone does not cut it, nor youtube. You learn that stuff IN THE WATER.

 

[Stephen McCallister]

I think he was diving tables....and had exceeded his NDL by more than 5 mins, which would require a 15 SS and stay out of the water for 24h. His computer thought he was fine, so presumably he did not spend all of his BT on the bottom....

This is what happened. I was diving nitrox on a guided dive, descended the line to about 80 feet, swam around for a bit hitting 102 feet for about 3 minutes then came up in our depth for a few more minutes then ascended. Total dive time 30 minutes. that includes the descent time, ascent time, safety stop time and time spent at various depths.

If I was to go by the table then yes I would have exceeded the NDL by more than 5 minutes, been required to do the 15 minute Deco stop and not dived for 24 hours. However since I let the computer handle all of that for me then there is no violation.

 

[Stephen McCallister]

There is no reason to get MSDT unless you intend to proceed up through the PADI levels; however, there IS value is getting certified to teach five specialties, because that means more money from more teaching and more opportunities to teach, and more rapidly get your 25 certs. You DO want the 25 certs so you can self-certify. So, MSDT makes sense, as do the five main specialties.

Unless you have a LOT of diving experience with a LOT of good divers in an LOT of different circumstances, then getting some CD input on how to teach a specialty is indeed worth while. Reading alone does not cut it, nor youtube. You learn that stuff IN THE WATER.

Yeah I am going for a complete career change. I am thinking about going some place for a few months to get the teaching experience before being shoved out the door and expecting to know it all.

 

[Diving Dubai]

Yeah I am going for a complete career change. I am thinking about going some place for a few months to get the teaching experience before being shoved out the door and expecting to know it all.

You never stop learning and refining your teaching. but the first courses you teach out of IE, are difficult because you feel a fraud and they feel quite overwhelming. It takes time to get into a rhythm and, especially figure out how to convey principles when students don't understand

IDC/IE teaches you the process but doesn't really teach you how to teach. It's false in the respect of yoru "students" are instructors, so when they "get a skill wrong" you correct and they do it perfectly. The real world isn't like that.

It took me about 6 months to find my feet and not be nervous before each course

 

[wstorms]

Ok then I want you to tell me how my computer did not lock me out and how it allowed me to continue diving, only flagged me to do 3 minute safety stops for all 4 dives on one day and only 2 safety stops on the morning dives the next day but not the afternoon dives. The computer did not lock me out at any time.

And yes it was in dive mode because it logged the dives, and I double checked it to make sure it was.

Since you are going to be that guy why dont you send me a dive computer that will do all of the things that you say that mine is supposed to do and hasnt done.

It seems you are comparing NDL limits from tables with NDL limits from the computer, in order to explain a DCS hit. It doesn't work like that. The tables assume you drop straight down, spend all your time exactly at the deepest depth and finally you ascent pretty much straight up up (with a maximum ascent speed).
The computer will measure your depth every second or so, and recalculate your remaining NDL based on your actual profile. That means that if you descent slower than a brick, or go to your deepest point for a shorter period, or come up gradually, or most likely all of them combined, your NDL will be longer compared to that from the table.

All that NDL does is indicate your risk of DCS. If you stay within NDL, chances of getting a DCS hit are low. If you go over, they increase. There is no absolute guarantee either way. Like DAN (and myself and others in earlier posts) pointed out, DCS is an unpredictable beast, with a lot of factors that can make a difference. NDL is only one of many.
Your computer can not determine your hydration level for example. It can only help you manage NDL. It did exactly that, and going by your posts, it worked as intended.

That means your statement that you had to do a 15 minute deco stop is confusing at least, and considering your computer did not give you a deco obligation it is actually even inaccurate / plain wrong reasoning.
It's kinda like saying your car dashboard is wrong because it gives you more miles per gallon currently while driving 30 miles an hour compared to what you looked up in the booklet for mpg with 60 miles an hour.
As a potential DM / OWSI / Specialty Instructor / MSDT I highly recommend you read up on this. Check the last chapter of the OWD manual for more info. Other sources are the encyclopedia of recreational diving (part of your DM kit) or this forum.

Finally, what computer were you using again? I am willing to bet you can find the manual online, including a picture of what a decostop / lockout would look like.

 

[Stephen McCallister]

You never stop learning and refining your teaching. but the first courses you teach out of IE, are difficult because you feel a fraud and they feel quite overwhelming. It takes time to get into a rhythm and, especially figure out how to convey principles when students don't understand

IDC/IE teaches you the process but doesn't really teach you how to teach. It's false in the respect of yoru "students" are instructors, so when they "get a skill wrong" you correct and they do it perfectly. The real world isn't like that.

It took me about 6 months to find my feet and not be nervous before each course

Yeah i get that and I am not in the mindset that once i complete IDC that I will know everything. thats why I ended up selecting a school where as I am taking the IDC and MSDT, I will be assisting in teaching and helping the instructors. I dont think I will ever not be nervous teaching.

 

[Stephen McCallister]

It seems you are comparing NDL limits from tables with NDL limits from the computer, in order to explain a DCS hit. It doesn't work like that. The tables assume you drop straight down, spend all your time exactly at the deepest depth and finally you ascent pretty much straight up up (with a maximum ascent speed).
The computer will measure your depth every second or so, and recalculate your remaining NDL based on your actual profile. That means that if you descent slower than a brick, or go to your deepest point for a shorter period, or come up gradually, or most likely all of them combined, your NDL will be longer compared to that from the table.

All that NDL does is indicate your risk of DCS. If you stay within NDL, chances of getting a DCS hit are low. If you go over, they increase. There is no absolute guarantee either way. Like DAN (and myself and others in earlier posts) pointed out, DCS is an unpredictable beast, with a lot of factors that can make a difference. NDL is only one of many.
Your computer can not determine your hydration level for example. It can only help you manage NDL. It did exactly that, and going by your posts, it worked as intended.

That means your statement that you had to do a 15 minute deco stop is confusing at least, and considering your computer did not give you a deco obligation it is actually even inaccurate / plain wrong reasoning.
It's kinda like saying your car dashboard is wrong because it gives you more miles per gallon currently while driving 30 miles an hour compared to what you looked up in the booklet for mpg with 60 miles an hour.
As a potential DM / OWSI / Specialty Instructor / MSDT I highly recommend you read up on this. Check the last chapter of the OWD manual for more info. Other sources are the encyclopedia of recreational diving (part of your DM kit) or this forum.

Finally, what computer were you using again? I am willing to bet you can find the manual online, including a picture of what a decostop / lockout would look like.

For the last time;

I know that the tables and the computers produce different dive profiles because of how the computers work.

I know dives are not square.

I know how DCS works and there are other out side factors that contribute to it. A dive computer doesnt get DCS.

Whats confusing about if I was using a dive table I would have needed to do a 15 minute deco stop and not dove for 24 hours but since i relied on my computer i did do that and the computer didnt require one and didnt lock me out?

Highly recommend me check up on what? I have been nose deep in all of my books.

The computer I am using is a Suunto Novo Zoop.

Why do I have to keep going over this with people? Its done and over with and I learned a huge lesson. Can we move on?

 

[tursiops]

Whats confusing about if I was using a dive table I would have needed to do a 15 minute deco stop and not dove for 24 hours but since i relied on my computer i did do that and the computer didnt require one and didnt lock me out?

Why do I have to keep going over this with people?

Partly it is because people don't read the whole thread, partly because your descriptions tend to be a little confusing, but mostly because of things you've said like the quote above.....why is it "confusing" that tables and your computer give different results? The dives were different (one was square, one was notl so wouldn't you expect the results to be different?

 

[Stephen McCallister]

Partly it is because people don't read the whole thread, partly because your descriptions tend to be a little confusing, but mostly because of things you've said like the quote above.....why is it "confusing" that tables and your computer give different results? The dives were different (one was square, one was notl so wouldn't you expect the results to be different?

Thanks for being a reasonable person. Sorry things are all spread out. Some information came in after the fact.

If I may change the subject back to the original topic. MSDT.

What I am planning on doing when I go back to school is picking up like 10 or 15 specialties during the MSDT part. That way i can teach more off the bat and it would be easier to reach the 25 certs. Or at least that was the plan. I dont know if that would be good or just focus on the 5 basic ones then once I get the 25 certs, self certify the rest.

 

[wstorms]

My back to topic tip: pick some specialties you actually enjoy yourself.
Personally, I do not really care about what kind of fish I am looking at, so fish ID etc is not really my thing. I am sure I could teach the bare minimum as detailed in the outline if I wanted to, but since I don't really care about it, I cannot bring much extra to the table. On the other hand, let me teach the wreck dive specialty and I can add a whole lot that isn't in the manual. If you enjoy what you are doing, teaching becomes easier.

As far as "teach more specialties >>> get 25 certs sooner"; this is only true if the specialties you can teach are actually requested in your local market. No point in learning how to teach ice diving if it never freezes where you are teaching...