MSDT Prep Questions

[yle]

I do think I will not be coming back here to do the DM and IDC and go some place where it is a bit more relaxed. Even the huge muscle bound room mate was getting worn out with the dives and schedule.

I did get to 94 dives so I am good to do the DM and IDC.

Thanks for all of the well wishes. Think I might go see the sights around here and enjoy the break.

Just a suggestion: you might want to use some of your downtime to seriously re-evaluate your need to rush into the IDC. A big part of being an instructor is the duty of care that you have for the students you take underwater for the first time. To effectively care for these students, you have to develop a strong understanding of risk as well as the ability to identify and mitigate those risks.

Being fixated on a goal can interfere with ones ability to recognize risks. It seems you were fixated on getting enough dives so you could qualify to rush through your DM-IDC-MSDT, and you ended up in a chamber.

Now imagine translating that behavior to your role as an instructor: in your fixation to complete 25 certs so you can have your MSDT card, you could fail to recognize risks during a class and a student could be injured. Not only will your student be forever affected, but you can kiss your instructor plans goodbye also.

Slow down. Scuba diving, in all respects, should be slow and cautious. The water will still be there a year from now, you have plenty of time to properly prepare. And years from now you'll be glad you did.

FWIW, my son and I both did our DM and IDC (not back to back... we did DM, came back later for IDC) at Rainbow Reef back in 2012. The DM class was awesome, just the two of us hanging out with our instructor for the 10 days. The IDC was very concentrated, but living with the 10 others in the shop apartments for the two weeks was a real plus. All 12 of us were together, literally, 24/7... so we spent all day in the classroom, pool or ocean, and all evening doing our homework while complaining about our CD. As an added bonus, some of the shop instructors lived with us in the apartments and were available to offer advice. It was a very productive, immersive environment.

 

[Stephen McCallister]

Yeah. thats kind of been on my mind. Diving should be a relaxing enjoyable sport. The way they are pushing the people through the dives, course work and classes is really stressful. Even the operation as a whole has a high turn over. We didnt know who our instructor would be until the day before. Perhaps it was a better operation back then vs now.

Now that I have enough dives to go into the DM and IDC thats one less thing I can worry about.
I do understand what you are saying about translating behavior from one side to the next. Now with the serious break I do have time to relax and find a better fit for the learning style that would best suit me (more relaxed, hands on and thorough).

 

[yle]

Now that I have enough dives to go into the DM and IDC thats one less thing I can worry about.

If I can offer another suggestion...

You will learn everything about teaching scuba in the DM class. This is why one role of a DM is to assist instructors with students. The IDC will turn you into an instructor, but the coursework in the IDC is primarily about hammering home the idea that you are responsible for the safety of your students.

With this in mind, you might want to consider becoming a DM and then spending some time assisting with classes. You will learn more from assisting than you will in the DM and IDC courses combined. Three things will come of this:

1. You will be able to work with students sooner, and you will be able to learn from the instructors you work with.

2. You will have a chance to decide, before you spend the thousands on the IDC, if being a scuba instructor is what you really want to do. (The reality is usually a little different from the marketing materials... especially the PADI marketing.)

3. Your experience working with classes will enhance your IDC experience... you will have an easier time with the IDC, and you will learn more from the course because you'll be familiar with the context (i.e. teaching students) for which it's preparing you.

Sure the marketing materials are slick, and they encourage new divers to get 100 dives and then become instructors (and live the dream!), but you'll do yourself a world of good to listen to the unbiased advice of those that have been there, done that. You can thank us later.

 

[Diving Dubai]

I want to pick up on the MSDT part.

It's supposed to be an "apprenticeship" those 1st 25 certs is when you really learn.

Quite a few IDC centres sell the "scam" of stay on for a couple of weeks and you'll get the magic 25 certs. How they achieve this is by team teaching - where you assist (okay this is good starting experience) and then throw you in the water for the qualifying dives of a group and you get the certs.

You've learnt nothing or very little

On IDC/IE you get taught to brief 2 linked OW skills, your "students" are experienced divers - they put in a briefed error into the skill, you correct it and they do the skill perfectly

Real world. You're briefing the whole lesson on your own. then during skills the student does it wrong, you correct it and they do it wrong again. You need to develop a tool box of techniques to help the student, recognise when they need a break etc etc.

My first OW classes 2 students was more than enough for me to deal with, you gradually get more experienced and learn. you hit problems and you consult another instructor who gives you pointers. You will feel a complete fraud in front of your first students, trying to portray a calm level of knowledge while being nervous and flustered.

Effectively you pass IE and then learn how to teach. Its a steep learning curve and when done properly MSDT is well earned, not given

 

[yle]

Quite a few IDC centres sell the "scam" of stay on for a couple of weeks and you'll get the magic 25 certs. How they achieve this is by team teaching - where you assist (okay this is good starting experience) and then throw you in the water for the qualifying dives of a group and you get the certs.

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the 25 cert requirement for MSDT was only for instructors that want to self-certify in specialties. Rainbow Reef has been promoting, for a long time, the plan to take the DM and IDC courses back-to-back (as the OP wrote about here...) and then take the MSDT course immediately following the IDC. I know this because our CD gave us the high pressure sales pitch for the MSDT course back in 2012. (To be fair, it would have been a good deal in financial terms... he wanted about $300, whereas PADI wanted about $80 per specialty as a fee to self-cert. Much cheaper to just do the course.)

I believe that if an instructor takes the MSDT course, which is basically the CD showing the instructor how to teach the specialties, the CD can ordain the newly minted instructor as an MSDT, certified to teach five specialties (whichever specialties they chose for the MSDT course.) Rainbow Reef always has "platinum course directors", which have 100+ instructor certs a year. Our CD explained that the specialties each count as +1 to their total, so every new instructor that takes the MSDT course with him gives him +5 (or possibly +6, if the MSDT rating counts also...) for his tally. Easy to see how RR can end up with multiple CD's each with 100+ in a year.

Anyway, thought this was worth mentioning. If I'm right, any instructor can become an MSDT without every having taught (or even assisted with) a single class. And they can be deemed qualified (by a CD) to teach a specialty just from spending one or two related dives with a course director.

 

[yle]

Effectively you pass IE and then learn how to teach. Its a steep learning curve and when done properly MSDT is well earned, not given

I'd agree with this, except for those DM's that assist for a lot of classes prior to becoming instructors. They'll have the experience you refer to long before they take the IE... which they should be able to breeze through by that point.

 

[tursiops]

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the 25 cert requirement for MSDT was only for instructors that want to self-certify in specialties.

The Instructor manual is quite clear:

Master Scuba Diver Trainer
Prerequisites
1. PADI Instructor
2. Five PADI Specialty Instructor ratings
Note: Excludes PADI Peak Performance Buoyancy, Project AWARE and Coral Conservation Specialty Instructor ratings. One PADI Freediver Instructor rating
may credit.
3. Certified 25 PADI Divers

a. No more than five from courses without dives.
b. No more than five from PADI Seal Team or Master Seal Team registrations.​

 

[yle]

The Instructor manual is quite clear:

Master Scuba Diver Trainer
Prerequisites
1. PADI Instructor
2. Five PADI Specialty Instructor ratings
Note: Excludes PADI Peak Performance Buoyancy, Project AWARE and Coral Conservation Specialty Instructor ratings. One PADI Freediver Instructor rating
may credit.
3. Certified 25 PADI Divers

a. No more than five from courses without dives.
b. No more than five from PADI Seal Team or Master Seal Team registrations.​

I stand corrected. So it seems the only advantage to the MSDT course is that it replaces the "20 dives in the specialty" requirement for self-certifying. So a CD can ordain a new instructor proficient in a specialty, even if that instructor has no experience in that specialty. Hmmm...

seems a little... oh what would be the right word to use without sounding critical of the policy? I'll think of it later.

 

[tursiops]

I stand corrected. So it seems the only advantage to the MSDT course is that it replaces the "20 dives in the specialty" requirement for self-certifying. So a CD can ordain a new instructor proficient in a specialty, even if that instructor has no experience in that specialty. Hmmm...

seems a little... oh what would be the right word to use without sounding critical of the policy? I'll think of it later.

Well, you still have to have 10 dives in each specialty, if the CD has trained you to teach the class. So to pick up five specialty instructor cards requires 50 dives. And you can't count a diver toward more than one specialty, so a deep wreck dive at night using Nitrox while taking pictures doesn't count towards five specialties....

 

[yle]

Well, you still have to have 10 dives in each specialty, if the CD has trained you to teach the class.

That is interesting... the 10 dives in each was never mentioned when the MSDT class was pitched to us. We were told it was an extra few days, a lot of "fun diving" with the CD, and POOF! you're an MSDT.

It did sound like fun, but I couldn't spare the time. Had to get back to my job that was paying me so I could afford to take the IDC.

Thanks again, for the details.