Moving up the "ladder"

[ColinCB]

For the next 4 or so months, I will be studying abroad in Australia. Obviously this means I'll be diving in Australia. There are also a -ton of divers. Since I've been here I've only done 3 dives. But continuing on...

Having this many divers around somehow always leads to your/their future in diving, especially since many of us are marine biologists, or some major having to do with the aquatic environment. Somehow it always leads to this discussion, no matter what. But then it becomes a 1-up competition. "OH, I WANT TO CAVE DIVE!" "OH I WANT TO DIVE TO 100 METERS!" And other crap like that...

Ignoring all of the X vs. Y vs. Z certification argument bullcrap, what's the next step for me?

A little background...

I've been diving since 2007, but due to prohibitive costs and the like, I've only completed around 70 dives. Sadly I've also fallen into the only logged 20 of those dives trap. I'm a bit lazy, but I've become better, logging the last 10 of my dives with scientific accuracy and precision. I've always been interested in what's below 100 feet since the day I started diving. I'm also not stupid and I've kept myself within safe limits. Obviously this leads me to technical diving. At this time, I'm not pro-anything. I'm a blank slate. I've read books, articles, posts on SB, and a lot of other stuff. There are so many options to choose from. Agencies to look at, gear to buy, and other factors.

I'm interested in penetration diving, both cave and wreck.

Don't get me wrong, I realize the seriousness of these diving environments and that's the reason for pursuing further and further training. I don't except to go from a reef to the andrea doria in a month or anything like that. I'm in it for the long haul.

So SB members, what's the next level of training for me? I don't care what agency you mention, as long as you have a REASON to mention it. I'm not looking for troll posts of "OMG DIR or OMG THAT AGENCY SUCKS!"

I appreciate the help.

To be honest, I'm just sick of seeing ****ty divers. Divers with no trim, no spatial awareness, no buoyancy, no idea what a NDL table is, no idea how to read a gauge, and no idea what diving should be. I'm sick of seeing people wreck years and years of coral growth for a ****ing picture. (side note: watched a guy break off a 16" fan coral to get a picture of his wife and then break off finger coral as he kicked off the bottom.) I want to be a better diver not only on paper (which isn't that important to me), but in the water. In essence, I want to learn.



Let me add one more thing. I currently dive a rented DR BP/W with a long/short reg setup and I like it. I feel like DIR-F would be a good starting point. I may not necessarily go that route, but everything I've heard makes it sound like I should take it (from both DIR and non-DIR divers here on SB).

 

[Ste Wart]

Where are you in Oz?

If you can get down to Mount Gambier in South Australia, then that place is the mecca for Cave-training; guess I should add 'In Oz'

Cave Divers Association of Australia | incorporated in south australia

From there you can hitch up your wagon and head out to the Nullabor plain. Cave-Diving in the middle of nowhere!!!!!!!

 

[snowdog]

ColinCB, It sounds like you have the bug, Scuba Pox.
Where do you go from here? that’s the million dollar question. It sounds like you have a keen eye and are able to identify issues with “trim”, “buoyancy” and the rest. How about giving back to the sport you love. Look into getting your certification and teach.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Well, Fundies is certainly one place to start ... you will learn about awareness and buoyancy ... you will learn about dive planning and what it means to be a good dive buddy. But it can be limiting in terms of equipment choices and dive buddy decisions. For many folks, that is no hardship at all ... for others, it creates itches that DIR won't scratch. So it really depends on you.

Forget about agency ... don't even pay attention to that. Concentrate on instructor. There are good ones to be had representing every agency ... you just have to find them. And there are good instructors who may not be right for you, because their teaching style just doesn't approach how you best learn and think about things. You need to identify those as well, because somebody else's recommendations will always be based on how well THEY gelled with him, not necessarily how well you will.

Where to go from here? Well, with 70 dives, a typical AOW class won't do anything for you ... so don't go there. Rescue is a good class ... I'd recommend it ... but you'll have to find an agency that doesn't require AOW as a prerequisite. NAUI is one such agency.

An "Intro to Tech" class by a competent NAUI or TDI instructor would also be a good way to go, if you should decide that the DIR approach is too limiting. But make sure you're choosing an instructor who's going to teach it properly. Find out (a) what types of dives the instructor does when they're not teaching, (b) what their attitude is on buddy diving, (c) whether or not they insist on teaching skills while hovering, (d) whether or not they provide additional skills not specified in the class requirements (and if so, what).

You want an instructor who routinely dives above the level they teach, who understands the concepts of communication and predictable behavior in a dive buddy, who will emphasize good buoyancy control by not only teaching skills in the water column but who will task-load you while doing them, and who recognizes that every environment presents its own unique challenges and who identifies those challenges by teaching skills that will help you cope with them.

That is the essence of a good class ... and given the issues you identified in your original post, I believe those will touch on the goals you feel are important.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ColinCB]

Where are you in Oz?

If you can get down to Mount Gambier in South Australia, then that place is the mecca for Cave-training; guess I should add 'In Oz'

Cave Divers Association of Australia | incorporated in south australia

From there you can hitch up your wagon and head out to the Nullabor plain. Cave-Diving in the middle of nowhere!!!!!!!

I'm up in QLD. That's jumping the gun! Can't go from AOW to cave in 3.14 seconds!

ColinCB, It sounds like you have the bug, Scuba Pox.
Where do you go from here? that’s the million dollar question. It sounds like you have a keen eye and are able to identify issues with “trim”, “buoyancy” and the rest. How about giving back to the sport you love. Look into getting your certification and teach.

Not yet!

Well, Fundies is certainly one place to start ... you will learn about awareness and buoyancy ... you will learn about dive planning and what it means to be a good dive buddy. But it can be limiting in terms of equipment choices and dive buddy decisions. For many folks, that is no hardship at all ... for others, it creates itches that DIR won't scratch. So it really depends on you.

Forget about agency ... don't even pay attention to that. Concentrate on instructor. There are good ones to be had representing every agency ... you just have to find them. And there are good instructors who may not be right for you, because their teaching style just doesn't approach how you best learn and think about things. You need to identify those as well, because somebody else's recommendations will always be based on how well THEY gelled with him, not necessarily how well you will.

Where to go from here? Well, with 70 dives, a typical AOW class won't do anything for you ... so don't go there. Rescue is a good class ... I'd recommend it ... but you'll have to find an agency that doesn't require AOW as a prerequisite. NAUI is one such agency.

An "Intro to Tech" class by a competent NAUI or TDI instructor would also be a good way to go, if you should decide that the DIR approach is too limiting. But make sure you're choosing an instructor who's going to teach it properly. Find out (a) what types of dives the instructor does when they're not teaching, (b) what their attitude is on buddy diving, (c) whether or not they insist on teaching skills while hovering, (d) whether or not they provide additional skills not specified in the class requirements (and if so, what).

You want an instructor who routinely dives above the level they teach, who understands the concepts of communication and predictable behavior in a dive buddy, who will emphasize good buoyancy control by not only teaching skills in the water column but who will task-load you while doing them, and who recognizes that every environment presents its own unique challenges and who identifies those challenges by teaching skills that will help you cope with them.

That is the essence of a good class ... and given the issues you identified in your original post, I believe those will touch on the goals you feel are important.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I'd probably take Fundies as a stepping stone. Mostly as a personal training stepping stone. Getting my trim perfect, buoyancy, etc. Dialing in gear, etc. I like setup in some respects. I'm not sure how I feel about full blown DIR or whatnot.

How would you go about doing this instructor research? It seems like a crapshoot to me. Is it talking to previous students, or e-mailing them directly?

Unfortunately I've already bitten onto AOW. It did absolutely zero for me, except take my money and gave me another card. Big woop. Any rescue course recommendations? Don't you need to have CPR and O2 certs for it?


You're telling me to find the perfect instructor! Where can I start this search? Any fundamental differences in material from difference agencies?



Also, is rescue diver a req for technical diving courses? Obviously it could be very beneficial, but is it necessary? I'm not interested in spending $1200 for the title of DM.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'd probably take Fundies as a stepping stone. Mostly as a personal training stepping stone. Getting my trim perfect, buoyancy, etc. Dialing in gear, etc. I like setup in some respects. I'm not sure how I feel about full blown DIR or whatnot.

That's pretty much how I went ... too Fundies (twice, in fact) and a few workshops with some GUE folks ... after that I decided to go with NAUI Tech, primarily because I found an instructor who suited me, but also because I wanted to do some things that DIR training would not prepare me for (solo and sidemount diving).

How would you go about doing this instructor research? It seems like a crapshoot to me. Is it talking to previous students, or e-mailing them directly?

Email the instructor directly ... any instructor who is not willing to answer your questions should be immediately eliminated, as they won't see you as worth the effort. Ask lots of questions ... find out what their prerequisites will be for the class. Find out what their expectations of you will be ... both before and during the training. Ask their opinion of your equipment setup ... if the responses appear to be out of line with your experience or if it seems like they're based more on opinion than sound reasoning, thank them for their time and move on to a different instructor.

The instructor you want will be the one who can answer your questions cogently, and in a way that makes sense to you. He or she will be able to clearly express what they expect of you ... both in terms of what you bring into the class and what you should expect to take away from it. If they come across as overly harsh or opinionated about different approaches, that's a red flag that perhaps this isn't the instructor you want to be learning from ... a good instructor focuses on the merits of their program, not the weaknesses in someone else's.

Unfortunately I've already bitten onto AOW. It did absolutely zero for me, except take my money and gave me another card. Big woop. Any rescue course recommendations? Don't you need to have CPR and O2 certs for it?

Sorry to hear about your AOW experience ... unfortunately it's a common theme. Most AOW classes are really little more than guided dives and easy money for the instructor. For the person truly wanting to learn, they're usually a waste of money.

As for Rescue, in the NAUI program there are two levels of that class ... Rescue and Advanced Rescue ... the latter does require O2 administration and CPR, as well as First Aid ... and it's the one I think is more worthwhile.

You're telling me to find the perfect instructor! Where can I start this search? Any fundamental differences in material from difference agencies?

Hate to say it, but most agency materials suck ... because they're primarily written for the majority audience, which is the tropical vacation diver. A good instructor will augment agency materials with handouts and/or references to some good publications that can be purchased separately from the class. That can, in fact, spawn another question for you to ask when you're interviewing the instructor.

And yes, I did say "interview the instructor" ... the majority of my students do interview me as much as I do them ... I encourage it. If you can find one that says "let's go diving first, so I can evaluate where you're at", you've found a winner.

Also, is rescue diver a req for technical diving courses? Obviously it could be very beneficial, but is it necessary? I'm not interested in spending $1200 for the title of DM.

Rescue is not required for technical diving courses, but a responsible instructor will insist you either take a rescue class, or will include rescue skills into their tech curriculum. I just finished teaching an Advanced Rescue class to a fellow who was taking NAUI Trimix concurrently from another instructor. He told me he got a lot out of it.

Unless you're planning to become a dive professional, the DM class probably isn't a good investment. DM class is more about learning how to be a dive leader than a better diver. If you're interested in a class that focuses on diving skills, the NAUI Master Diver is a good option ... assuming it's taught properly.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Ste Wart]

I'm up in QLD. That's jumping the gun! Can't go from AOW to cave in 3.14 seconds!

Why not? You have to do deep cavern first. but you can do it. Gotta start somewhere.

Also, is rescue diver a req for technical diving courses? Obviously it could be very beneficial, but is it necessary? I'm not interested in spending $1200 for the title of DM.

Seeing as you're in QLD you're most likely be surrounded by TecRec and yes you will need Rescue Diver for those courses. Nitrox is needed as well.

And if you're in Queensland get up to Ayr or Townsville to dive the Yongala!!!!!!!! Best dive in the world; apparently. Well it is very good!

 

[TSandM]

If it isn't out of the question to get down to Sydney, I'd strongly recommend the GUE-F class. For one thing, you can take it in a single tank, using the gear you have; you can then spend as much time as you like perfecting the skills, transition to doubles when you are ready, and come back for a tech pass reevaluation, if you decided GUE was the direction you wanted to go for future training. For another thing, the standards will be uncompromising. You sound as though you want to pursue excellence -- GUE is a great place for people with that temperament. Yes, there are similar instructors in every agency -- but how do you find them? You KNOW what GUE will ask from you.

If you were to decide that you wanted to go to sidemount right away, or rebreathers, I am quite sure that you would still not regret having a good technical foundation. My friend Rick Inman, who used to post here quite a bit, took Fundies with me, and did all his later technical training with IANTD. His instructor told him it was clear that taking Fundamentals was the best thing he could have done to ready himself for the rest of his education.

 

[ColinCB]

That's pretty much how I went ... too Fundies (twice, in fact) and a few workshops with some GUE folks ... after that I decided to go with NAUI Tech, primarily because I found an instructor who suited me, but also because I wanted to do some things that DIR training would not prepare me for (solo and sidemount diving).


Email the instructor directly ... any instructor who is not willing to answer your questions should be immediately eliminated, as they won't see you as worth the effort. Ask lots of questions ... find out what their prerequisites will be for the class. Find out what their expectations of you will be ... both before and during the training. Ask their opinion of your equipment setup ... if the responses appear to be out of line with your experience or if it seems like they're based more on opinion than sound reasoning, thank them for their time and move on to a different instructor.

The instructor you want will be the one who can answer your questions cogently, and in a way that makes sense to you. He or she will be able to clearly express what they expect of you ... both in terms of what you bring into the class and what you should expect to take away from it. If they come across as overly harsh or opinionated about different approaches, that's a red flag that perhaps this isn't the instructor you want to be learning from ... a good instructor focuses on the merits of their program, not the weaknesses in someone else's.


Sorry to hear about your AOW experience ... unfortunately it's a common theme. Most AOW classes are really little more than guided dives and easy money for the instructor. For the person truly wanting to learn, they're usually a waste of money.

As for Rescue, in the NAUI program there are two levels of that class ... Rescue and Advanced Rescue ... the latter does require O2 administration and CPR, as well as First Aid ... and it's the one I think is more worthwhile.


Hate to say it, but most agency materials suck ... because they're primarily written for the majority audience, which is the tropical vacation diver. A good instructor will augment agency materials with handouts and/or references to some good publications that can be purchased separately from the class. That can, in fact, spawn another question for you to ask when you're interviewing the instructor.

And yes, I did say "interview the instructor" ... the majority of my students do interview me as much as I do them ... I encourage it. If you can find one that says "let's go diving first, so I can evaluate where you're at", you've found a winner.


Rescue is not required for technical diving courses, but a responsible instructor will insist you either take a rescue class, or will include rescue skills into their tech curriculum. I just finished teaching an Advanced Rescue class to a fellow who was taking NAUI Trimix concurrently from another instructor. He told me he got a lot out of it.

Unless you're planning to become a dive professional, the DM class probably isn't a good investment. DM class is more about learning how to be a dive leader than a better diver. If you're interested in a class that focuses on diving skills, the NAUI Master Diver is a good option ... assuming it's taught properly.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I'm not interested in solo diving, and sidemount doesn't interest me, at least not yet it doesn't.

Definitely going to start e-mailing people before I go home. Since I'm in AUS for the next 4 months and diving won't start back up in New England for a bit, I have some time to do my research. Winter in AUS is perfect for diving. Winter is NE is, well not.

Frankly, AOW was the biggest piece of **** class I have ever taken. My instructor was an idiot and she really did not give any personal attention. Not only that, but the vis ranged from 2' to <1". Really awful day. Windy, cold, and just crap. The "deep" dive was pretty much just bouncing to 65ft, then surfacing. And the water was COLD. I don't remember exactly, but my suit was leaking and it was probably hovering around 50-55ish. Not a nice feeling when your suit is a sieve. We surfaced and faced 2-3 foot swells and a really, really rough swim to a rocky beach. This dive is what pushed me to ditch splits and get F1s! Best decision ever. Either way, AOW was a waste of time. I really only did it so that people/trips that required AOW would allow me to dive. Stupid. Hundreds of dollars for a damn card. JEEZE.

Definitely not interested in DM at all. I want to get away from the people I'm diving with, not supervise them more, HAH!

Thanks for the advice!

Why not? You have to do deep cavern first. but you can do it. Gotta start somewhere.



Seeing as you're in QLD you're most likely be surrounded by TecRec and yes you will need Rescue Diver for those courses. Nitrox is needed as well.

And if you're in Queensland get up to Ayr or Townsville to dive the Yongala!!!!!!!! Best dive in the world; apparently. Well it is very good!

The Yongala is on my list of MUST DIVE before I leave AUS. So that's definitely happening. Should be awesome.

As for training, I'm still not comfortable taking those classes without having my gear dialed in.

Have nitrox cert.

If it isn't out of the question to get down to Sydney, I'd strongly recommend the GUE-F class. For one thing, you can take it in a single tank, using the gear you have; you can then spend as much time as you like perfecting the skills, transition to doubles when you are ready, and come back for a tech pass reevaluation, if you decided GUE was the direction you wanted to go for future training. For another thing, the standards will be uncompromising. You sound as though you want to pursue excellence -- GUE is a great place for people with that temperament. Yes, there are similar instructors in every agency -- but how do you find them? You KNOW what GUE will ask from you.

If you were to decide that you wanted to go to sidemount right away, or rebreathers, I am quite sure that you would still not regret having a good technical foundation. My friend Rick Inman, who used to post here quite a bit, took Fundies with me, and did all his later technical training with IANTD. His instructor told him it was clear that taking Fundamentals was the best thing he could have done to ready himself for the rest of his education.

To be honest, I really want to take Fundies in cold water when I have my drysuit and gear.

As much as the idea of taking it in warm water sounds amazing, it's just not what I'm used to. I'm used to the cold, poor vis waters of New England. There are definitely Fundies classes offered up there. Doesn't Bob Sherwood do a great fundies class up there? I forgot.



=====================================

By the way. Jon, if you're reading this thread, your DM "title" is worthless to me.




Anyway, moving on.

This where I get confused. Other that taking classes and getting trained, what are the necessary steps to diving doubles?

Obviously diving doubles is a whole new game. New setup, more regs, hoses, weighting, etc.

What's the way to go from a singles rig to a doubles rig? Other than equipment changes, what training is necessary? Since jumping into the water without any training would obviously be a very stupid idea. Are there specific doubles classes that would fit in well? I know GUE offers a doubles class, but I'd be well out of my league jumping right into that.

 

[TSandM]

You have two choices in the Northeast, Sherwood and Hayes. You ought to talk to both of them, and talk to some of their students, before making a choice. Different instructors work well for different people.

Double tanks have a couple of challenges, but they aren't rocket science. The first, and possibly most difficult, is getting the rig properly adjusted, and putting the right amount of ballast in the right place to be able to maintain a horizontal position. The vast majority of people new to doubles assume a 45 degree head-up position, and then suspect they are feet-heavy, when in fact the opposite is true. Having some help from an experienced buddy is really valuable during this phase.

The second challenge is learning to reach and manipulate your valves. This is something you can work on on your own, although there are certain tips that help. (Read this wonderful rant on valve drills ). Until you can reliably close a valve and cope with the results, you are basically diving a very large single tank with a lot of failure points . . . and there is nothing wrong with that in the beginning, as long as you keep the dives conservative.

I did my first doubles dives by putting on a set of doubles and going diving -- I went with an experienced mentor, but needed very little help from him just to dive the things. I did make use of significant resources to get them balanced, and to learn to do valve shutdowns efficiently.

But a well-taught GUE Doubles Primer should not be out of your league, once you have done Fundamentals. It SHOULD be a class designed to help you into a new configuration, and as it is not a certification class, shouldn't be taught or regarded as an examination. But someone teaching the doubles primer would be well within his rights to expect you to have your Fundamentals skills solid going in.