Most disturbing phone call I've gotten in a long time

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That's not as dumb as it sounds and I've actually considered it. It wouldn't take much more than a website, training materials, some standards and a little marketing and insurance.

As I pointed out with the SDA site, it is very easy to do. You could do almost all of it this afternoon if you wanted to.

The almost part is the insurance.

I am close enough to the recent formation of UTD to know that you can't just can't call up an insurance agency and get insurance. (I heard a little about some of the hurdles that had to be crossed.) They are going to examine your operation to determine if they are going to be willing to insure you.

For that reason, I suspect that SDA does not have any insurance.
 
Really......
Maybe you are a great instructor; maybe you really will teach me something that I could not learn diving with a club full of people, or read in a book. My experience and the majority of the divers I get to talk and dive with leads me to believe, you would be in the slim minority if you are.

I won't spend another wooden nickel on dive instruction; it has been and will remain into the future a complete waste of money. My experience is all PADI, and all they want is your money.
Have a pulse, and breathe, put a couple thousand dollars into the PADI coffers and you too can be an instructor. Never mind that you can’t teach, and have no real world experience to draw on. You pay your money, you get your cert.

The issue here is that someone is doing something that is making the industry less profitable for everyone that "teaches" scuba diving. There would be no complaint against these DM's who are teaching if they paid the price of admission into the club, and paid for insurance, thus increasing overhead to teach, and charged more $$$$$
Having a PADI or other organization certification that you can teach something does not mean that you are a TEACHER. It means you bought a franchise. You paid your money to the organization to get a certificate, that certificate then allows you to pay more money for insurance from the same organization... PADI exists to make Money; they are a privately owned profit generating corporation. It exists solely to make money.

State the real reason that these non franchise competitors are upsetting to you, be honest about it...
The real issue is that there is a continuing dilution of profit in an industry that you purchased a franchise in. Yes a franchise. The materials that you sell are provided by the company whose logo you display.

Dive training is a commodity, which has been and will be the goal of PADI. Just like McDonalds hamburgers are a
commodity. It is a least acceptable standard commodity just like McDonalds hamburgers.

Instead of whinging about how the other guy is undercutting your revenue stream, try working with a value model instead. What real value can you provide the clients. If you are all flying the same banner and teaching out of the same book, than the only product difference is in the price. That is again a commodity market. Commodity markets seek to drive prices lower and lower and lower and generate profit through quantity.

If you wish to compete in this market you have limited choices of action, You need to either increase sales quantity, which is hard in an industry that is seeing a decrease in the number of participants, or you differentiate your product. Outback Steak house servers hamburgers that are more expensive than McDonalds because it is not the least acceptable standard of a commodity.

Marketing in this market is going to be difficult, differentiation of value is going to be difficult; you are going to have to learn to be a sales person.

There are also enough of us out here that have been through the "correctly sanctioned training", and know that it is a poor value in any case, that are going to tell others to go with the cheapest product, get your card, and then come diving with people that WANT to share their knowledge, not make a fast buck.

People do learn to dive from a mentoring relationship, if they are going to remain divers. That comes from the community of divers, not the "professional" trainers. When profit is the motive the less time it takes to make the buck the better. When community is the motive, the goal is sharing of knowledge and experience. There are different social and status determiners between the two methods.

Before you ask…. Yeah I have a bone to chew with the industry...

The first class I took in the dive industry I paid over 3 times the going rate of the commodity classes in my area. I was a sucker when I signed up. The instructor claimed to be a marine biologist and said that we would see octopi and a whole list of other creatures on our last day of open water. That instructor did only the classroom work, and some pool work with us. She could not get enough students to do an open water secession. She took our money, high dollar, and never finished her end of the contract.

On top of that she was a very poor teacher. She hated it whenever anyone asked questions. And if you were not able to instantly grasp or perform a skill on the first try she punished students by sending them to the shallow end of the pool and having them do mask clears one after the other... $380.00 each for that class in 1996, my wife refused to talk about diving after that very expensive class for 4 years. I had purchased a bunch of gear at top dollar
through my local dive shop that the instructor worked with. I left feeling the whole thing was a scam, and that I had been had.

On the good side. There was an instructor, Larry Simanack, who I met through non diving related activities who stepped up and said; "You paid how much and didn't get certified?" He listened to what had happened, charged me $10.00 to cover pool rental, and took me through the pool sessions again, and then took me with his class to the open water. That man was great, and he could teach. If anyone knows him tell him I have thought about him diving all across the South Pacific! Larry Rocked!!!!!

The Nitrox class...... Please.... I knew more about gas blending from reading the oxyhackers book before the class than the instructors did about the subject. There were no dives, no blending in action. The entire teaching for the experiential learners in the group: we got to use and had recommend to us to buy, an oxygen sensor from the dive store the class was held in... I sat through this class that did not even cover the material in the Padi book, (which was so lacking in technical information as to make it a pamphlet for gear sales at your local PADI approved store).We then took the test as a group with the instructor reading out the correct answer to make sure that everyone passed. The real goal, paying $70+ each for a poorly written sales pamphlet, another $45.00 each a “new card” that only says we have Nitrox….

The problem is there is no way for the consumer to differentiate between instructors like Larry and the majority of them out there. Agency? Years of reported experience? Cost? None of them seem to be an indicator of their ability or even willingness to teach.

Stop complaining about being undercut in a capitalistic market and either switch to another market that you are more efficient at, or change your product offering to be more competitive in a value based market. Figure out a way that you could make someone confident in your ability to teach them something that will make diving MORE FUN. Learn to sell to your market, not complain about the competitions ability to undercut you in price.

Guy
:)
 
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:hm: His complaint has nothing to do with money. It has to do with safety. If you're unsafe and dead who cares if you paid $350 or $0 for the lack of training that killed you.
 
I know of one shop doing their pool work in a 3 ft deep pool. But they also had one student die during O/W checkout on one occasion and then on an entirely different occasion, during O/W checkout a student ended up with probably an embolism and is probably in a wheelchair for life. I've been told that reporting them at least for the 3ft deep pool certs will do no good because "the certifying agency doesn't care." I do.
 
The post is all about money. Money is mentioned over and over again. 1>The potential client called the op and asked the cost of class, 2> was quoted, 3> they then called around found a seemingly cheaper way of doing it, 4> went with the seemingly cheaper solution 5> result the potential client did not have the knowledge to understand that the cheaper offering would not get him what he wanted. (Failed sales tactics of the op).

The OP then quotes about Free classes with purchase of $250. of overpriced gear. Then talks about other shops and what they are charging and not doing.

This is a money issue, that is wrapped up in whisper of safety talk... The whole post is about the failure of the OP to sell in a market that contains poorly educated clients.

The insurance, use of the pool, all of it is about how the OP is not making money doing his classes because he is having trouble attracting students to his high cost classes, when there are seemingly free offerings in the marketplace. In line after line about costs, insurance, etc, there are two lines about students... One is a hersey report that the students learning from the dive masters did not know what they are doing. The other is the statement that someone could get hurt and SUE.

The OP's post is not about safety it is about money.

If you really really care about the safety of new divers, and about their abilities to be competent divers immediately out of certification, and that were your primary concerns, then why not offer the courses that you teach cheaper than anyone else around? I ask this not to piss anyone off, or because I want free courses, but because it points out the real facts of diver education... It is all about the money. You don't do free classes as an instructor because you want to make money teaching. You are in Business to make money. Teaching is the product that you have chosen to sell.

The OP states that he was going to post this in the instructors only area, but decided to post it here in beginning scuba area. The post belonged in the instructor area, where everyone would shake there heads, and think it was about safety while all the while FEELING it in the money they are not making.
 
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I won't spend another wooden nickel on dive instruction; it has been and will remain into the future a complete waste of money. My experience is all PADI, and all they want is your money.
How much instruction have you had? Your profile does not list your highest level of certification. All we know is that you have been certified for more than 10 years and have accumulated less than 100 dives. (I am just trying to get a sense of what percentage of the instructor pool you are basing your opinion on.)

Have a pulse, and breathe, put a couple thousand dollars into the PADI coffers and you too can be an instructor. Never mind that you can’t teach, and have no real world experience to draw on. You pay your money, you get your cert.
I can't tell whether this is hyperbole, a mistake, or a lie. Which is it?

The first class I took in the dive industry I paid over 3 times the going rate of the commodity classes in my area. I was a sucker when I signed up. The instructor claimed to be a marine biologist and said that we would see octopi and a whole list of other creatures on our last day of open water. That instructor did only the classroom work, and some pool work with us. She could not get enough students to do an open water secession. She took our money, high dollar, and never finished her end of the contract.

So you ran into a poor teacher who did not fulfill the contract. That was more than 10 years ago. Did you report her for that at the time?

On the good side. There was an instructor, Larry Simanack, who I met through non diving related activities who stepped up and said; "You paid how much and didn't get certified?" He listened to what had happened, charged me $10.00 to cover pool rental, and took me through the pool sessions again, and then took me with his class to the open water. That man was great, and he could teach. If anyone knows him tell him I have thought about him diving all across the South Pacific! Larry Rocked!!!!!

Ah, so there are good instructors. Of course, you would refuse to take a class from him again, wouldn't you? After all, you said, "I won't spend another wooden nickel on dive instruction; it has been and will remain into the future a complete waste of money."

The Nitrox class...... Please.... I knew more about gas blending from reading the oxyhackers book before the class than the instructors did about the subject. There were no dives, no blending in action.
The nitrox course teaches you how to use nitrox when you dive. It does not teach you how to blend nitrox. There is no practical reason to know how to blend nitrox for the nitrox user except to know that one method requires O2 clean tanks. Most nitrox instructors don't blend the gas either,so they probably don't know how to do it. If you want to blend your own nitrox, you can take a class for that. The diving requirement was removed years ago because you don't learn anything about nitrox by doing the dive itself.

The entire teaching for the experiential learners in the group: we got to use and had recommend to us to buy, an oxygen sensor from the dive store the class was held in... I sat through this class that did not even cover the material in the Padi book, (which was so lacking in technical information as to make it a pamphlet for gear sales at your local PADI approved store).
The idea of home study is that you don't go over the materials if the student shows through knowledge reviews that the material was understood--as you indicate it was.

We then took the test as a group with the instructor reading out the correct answer to make sure that everyone passed. The real goal, paying $70+ each for a poorly written sales pamphlet, another $45.00 each a “new card” that only says we have Nitrox….
Well, if he read the answers off to you as you took the test, that was a serious breach of instructional ethics. Did you report him?

So, we can see that you had two instructors you think were bad and one you thought was great. Therefore all instructors suck. I get it.
 
I've been told that reporting them at least for the 3ft deep pool certs will do no good because "the certifying agency doesn't care." I do.

Whoever told you that is wrong. It is a serious violation and should be reported. They will investigate and act on it.
 
After reading thousands of Jim's postings on SB I would say while often cloaked in concern, most read to me as self promotion / sales and bashing of his competition / naysayers. :idk:
 
First: I agree, we shouldn't bring cowboys into this argument.

Second: I'm not vested in the market, I just love to dive so I don't think this effects me. Mainly because there are plenty of crappy divers that did receive proper training and they still blow. This IMO is the sole responsibility of the divers to maintain his or her skills and has nothing to do with training which may or may not have been years ago.

Jim is a standup guy. I don't have to meet him in person to know that. I think he will deal with this in the right way.

On the other side of things some dive shops jack prices up way over msrp so this is why it comes as no surprise that this stuff happens. I feel for people trying to save money on gear. This is why I either buy used or selectively buy from places that have good prices.
 
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