One thing that we always do before we "fun dive" is have whoever is diving with us sign a release stating that we are fun diving and that there is no sort of instruction taking place, and we are strictly a diver. It would help a little incase there is an accident.
MO cave fatality
- Thread starter scubaguy
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Mike
Do you consider yourself more at risk of being a buddy....being an educator? Do you believe that you have a higher level of assumed risk or owe higher care even if your not teaching?
IMO you should be able to separate the two but many may disagree.
Do you consider yourself more at risk of being a buddy....being an educator? Do you believe that you have a higher level of assumed risk or owe higher care even if your not teaching?
IMO you should be able to separate the two but many may disagree.
OP
5615mike:
Mike I really dont know, I always try to help out when I am diving and I see something thats not right, I have shared air with people that I didnt know on the moring line but I think that any responsible Diver would do the same, Instructor or not, But I do believe that the lawyers would have a hayday with your behind if you were an Instructor and did nothing to help someone even if it was not your student, I had a Master Seargent in the Army tell me one time while I was being reviewed to recieve my Seargent stripes ¨ That every private in the army is my responsibility, not just the ones in my squad or even in my company, but every private in the Army¨.
I guess you could look at Diving the same way, Every one in the water is your responsability, not just your buddy but everyones buddy, If they are in need and you have the ability to help them then you should, I think if that is true I will need to start carrying alot more tanks.
5615mike:
It depends on who I'm diving with and what we're doing. Some of the people I dive with have equal or greater credentials and more experience. In that case I'm clearly just another diver.
On the other hand if I'm diving with less experienced divers who know my qualifications I probably need to be pretty careful to make sure that every one understands that I'm just out diving. Once I start doing things for them they might be reasonable in expecting me to do it (duty of care). Of course if something did go wrong I would respond the best that I can to help.
I have read of instructors being held liable because it was found that a diver who was not their student or buddy was reasonable in believing that the instructor was looking out for them just because they were an instructor. I don't know how common this is but I think there are things I can do to avoid it.
Lets face it, there are lots of divers who only dive under supervision. If there's an instructor around they'll think they're there to baby-sit. I don't dive under those conditions unless I am baby sitting.
Blowin Da Bubbl
Registered
I think we are all responsible for one another . Kinda like doctors and the hipocratic oath. Lets face it if the shoe were on the other foot regaurdless of ones abilty would you not want help rendered if in a bind. I think we owe it to each other if not as human beings than as individuals within a tight knit group that has a practical understanding of whats at stake(lives) to do all we can.
Should a persons credentials be on the line . IMO no.We are all human we make mistakes . Now if you are the instructor with a class i feel it is your responsibility to maintain the safety of that group.No one should die while taking a class period. If it happens and the instructor was negligent IE. too many students for him to handle lapse of attention ect. yes he or she should be held responsible. But based soley on the fact you were out diving and didn't do all you could to help makes you a poor human being not necsesarily a poor instructor . However one I would think twice about getting any training from.
Just my 2 cents.....
Dive deep . Dive safe . & look out for each other as your fellow man.Life is precious as are each and every one of you.
B.D.B.
Should a persons credentials be on the line . IMO no.We are all human we make mistakes . Now if you are the instructor with a class i feel it is your responsibility to maintain the safety of that group.No one should die while taking a class period. If it happens and the instructor was negligent IE. too many students for him to handle lapse of attention ect. yes he or she should be held responsible. But based soley on the fact you were out diving and didn't do all you could to help makes you a poor human being not necsesarily a poor instructor . However one I would think twice about getting any training from.
Just my 2 cents.....
Dive deep . Dive safe . & look out for each other as your fellow man.Life is precious as are each and every one of you.
B.D.B.
5615mike:
As someone with a high level of training or experience, you do have a higher duty of care than if diving with your peers.
This is because less experienced divers look up to you as a role model. A role model transfers knowledge by example, therefore even if you are not teaching, you are teaching by default.
A less experienced diver may see you do something and figure out that if you do it, then it must/might be ok for them to do it. If you fail to ensure that they understand that they "should not try this at home" then you are somewhat responsable. Hence the "do not try this at home" warnings on things like MTV´s jackass etc. They are waivers that arose from successful lawsuits, the law must therefore agree that we are more legally responsable than regular divers.
I solve this by going diving for fun where regular divers cant or dont go (beyond the limits of recreational diving).
If I dive at "Boring bay" or "Resort diver reef", I dont care what I am doing, I am someones role model, so therefore working and legally responsable whether being paid or not.
It is sad but true, but legal protection is an important part of risk management.
When trying to make this type of judgment call, I tell people to imagine what the prosecuting lawyer would say, how could they bend your words or use them against you.
Remember, if it wasnt for lawyers, we wouldnt need lawyers.
Spectre
Contributor
From what I understand, he was -not- teaching during this accident.
If the information that I gathered on the accident was actually true to the fact, then I personally am relieved to hear that the instructor is allegedly loosing his instructor cert.
However that judgement is based only on the information I gathered with no way to verify it's accuracy. Since this is one of those topics that can't be discussed clinically, I'm not going get into how I arrived at the point where I feel relieved by this news.
With that said... I suggest people go digging and find what they can find about this accident and make their own judgement.
If the information that I gathered on the accident was actually true to the fact, then I personally am relieved to hear that the instructor is allegedly loosing his instructor cert.
However that judgement is based only on the information I gathered with no way to verify it's accuracy. Since this is one of those topics that can't be discussed clinically, I'm not going get into how I arrived at the point where I feel relieved by this news.
With that said... I suggest people go digging and find what they can find about this accident and make their own judgement.
Groundhog246
Contributor
One of my instructors got married a couple of summers ago. Wedding was in Toby with pre and post wedding dives (both parties dive). He was very clear that legally he would be considered responsible for ANY on site dive accidents. He was especially firm that anyone having had any alcohol that day would not dive after and that anyone breaking the rule would never dive with or near him again.
I know from experience that he and the other instructors at the LDS are very particular about where they dive for fun and who with (pat myself on the back I am among those deemed worthy to be a buddy for fun). That's not to say they won't dive with a newer/struggling diver if asked, or assist if they see someone struggling or doing something wrong, but in those cases they are clearly in a teaching role anyway.
I know from experience that he and the other instructors at the LDS are very particular about where they dive for fun and who with (pat myself on the back I am among those deemed worthy to be a buddy for fun). That's not to say they won't dive with a newer/struggling diver if asked, or assist if they see someone struggling or doing something wrong, but in those cases they are clearly in a teaching role anyway.
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