Mexico Cenote Diving or sth else in Latin America/Cavern Diving

[johnnywulff]

You must do Cenote Angelita and Dreamgates, as mentioned at Cozumel Palancar Horseshoe and Santa Rosa Wall

Perfect spend a week

 

[kensuf]

That's unhelpful polemic. The guided cenote tours have proven to be very safe, as long as the rules are strictly adhered to. Those rules cover everything from the qualifications and equipment of the guides, to group sizes, distance to open water, etc. Now, this is Mexico, and enforcement of these rules is lax at best. Therefore, it's important to find a reputable guide / operator. Some are regularly mentioned on this board. Under the Jungle is an excellent operation, although they specialize more in boutique cave diving than cavern tours. Another well-respected outfit is CenoteXperience. And there are others. Avoid fly-by nights to save a dollar or five.

According to the rules of accident analysis, the #1 killer in overhead environments is a lack of training -- how do the unaware differentiate between a good operator and a bad operator? How does someone stepping off a cruise ship identify a cenote diving outfit that strictly adheres to the rules from one with questionable ethics/standards/morals?

This is a sincere question -- my only experience cave diving in Mexico was project stuff for Texas A&M in Merida and some stuff in Cozumel, I've never done anything in the Tulum/Maya Riveria area.

 

[kafkaland]

According to the rules of accident analysis, the #1 killer in overhead environments is a lack of training -- how do the unaware differentiate between a good operator and a bad operator? How does someone stepping off a cruise ship identify a cenote diving outfit that strictly adheres to the rules from one with questionable ethics/standards/morals?

This is a sincere question -- my only experience cave diving in Mexico was project stuff for Texas A&M in Merida and some stuff in Cozumel, I've never done anything in the Tulum/Maya Riveria area.

I would treat it a bit like selecting a cavern instructor, because that's what it essentially is. Do the research, ask questions, and preferably get a referral. There is plenty of useful stuff on the Mexico forum.

What I personally would look for is an operation that has 'skin in the game', that is, they would lose their livelihood if something were to happen. Typically, that would be a shop-based operation that specializes in these tours and not someone who does it out of the back of a truck, or as a side business. Then I would ask who they use as guides, that is, are they full-time long-term employees or freelancers hired on a whim? Then, how do they train their guides - a good operation invests some time into training a new guide even if he has all the credentials, before letting them guide customers. Ask about the cert level of the guide, the minimum is OWSI and full cave, but very often it's cavern instructor or higher, (which I think it should be, because it's really closer to teaching cavern than OW guiding)

Then, I would familiarize myself with the rules so that I knew when the guide is breaking them and can refuse to follow. They are a sticky in the Mexico forum. The most important ones that are easy to verify are no more than four guests per guide, guide in full cave configuration, daylight visible at all times, an extensive dive briefing that includes rules of third and separated diver protocol, and most critically, to never, ever, leave the cavern line. Virtually all accidents that I am aware of were caused by the guide going off-line for convenience or to show something 'extra', or a diver splitting from the group and swimming into the cave on his own. I am not aware of a single accident where all the rules were followed.

 

[DogDiver]

According to the rules of accident analysis, the #1 killer in overhead environments is a lack of training -- how do the unaware differentiate between a good operator and a bad operator? How does someone stepping off a cruise ship identify a cenote diving outfit that strictly adheres to the rules from one with questionable ethics/standards/morals?

This is a sincere question -- my only experience cave diving in Mexico was project stuff for Texas A&M in Merida and some stuff in Cozumel, I've never done anything in the Tulum/Maya Riveria area.

They don't know what they don't know. We, in North Florida recognize the issues. Wish I could say something to convince them.

 

[kafkaland]

They don't know what they don't know. We, in North Florida recognize the issues. Wish I could say something to convince them.

Ah, that North Florida cave superiority complex... enjoy it while it lasts.

Seriously, there are plenty of things that could be done more safely in Mexico, and that's not limited to the cavern tours. But your 'we know it all' attitude is not helpful. There are plenty of very accomplished cave divers down there, shaping the local culture. And despite your cry of 'they're doing everything wrong', the safety record has been very good, and fatalities were usuallly a result of blatant violations of the local norms.

 

[KevinNM]

Ah, that North Florida cave superiority complex... enjoy it while it lasts.

Seriously, there are plenty of things that could be done more safely in Mexico, and that's not limited to the cavern tours. But your 'we know it all' attitude is not helpful. There are plenty of very accomplished cave divers down there, shaping the local culture. And despite your cry of 'they're doing everything wrong', the safety record has been very good, and fatalities were usuallly a result of blatant violations of the local norms.

Those that we hear about. My impression is that they cover up all the ones they can. The police in Mexico investigate about 4.5% of total crimes, with about 99% of crimes resulting in nobody being convicted. 98% of murders in Mexico last year went unsolved

 

[repat]

That's why I thought of already doing the cavern course here and get the Intro to Cave "update" in Mexico. Theres a variety of interesting vulcanic stone caverns here. But the only ones teaching it are from ProTec (aka CMAS, not the diving school), hence my question But I'm also thinking that while the cavern course is probably more thorough there, I can't see more cenotes and I'm probably not going to be back in Mexico any time soon. With Intro to Cave, which I'm confident I could pass and have fun, I could see a little more.

Or who knows, maybe I do catch the cave bug and I'll be back next year

 

[kensuf]

Ah, that North Florida cave superiority complex... enjoy it while it lasts.

Seriously, there are plenty of things that could be done more safely in Mexico, and that's not limited to the cavern tours. But your 'we know it all' attitude is not helpful. There are plenty of very accomplished cave divers down there, shaping the local culture. And despite your cry of 'they're doing everything wrong', the safety record has been very good, and fatalities were usuallly a result of blatant violations of the local norms.

But you agree there are several fatalities a year during these "safe" cenote tours?

 

[Lorenzoid]

I appreciate that even one fatality is too many, but my impression is that the Yucatan has such a huge volume of these guided cenote tours as a result of cruise ships and resorts selling them as activities that two or three fatalities a year would be a very small percentage.

 

[scubadiver888]

That's why I thought of already doing the cavern course here and get the Intro to Cave "update" in Mexico. Theres a variety of interesting vulcanic stone caverns here. But the only ones teaching it are from ProTec (aka CMAS, not the diving school), hence my question But I'm also thinking that while the cavern course is probably more thorough there, I can't see more cenotes and I'm probably not going to be back in Mexico any time soon. With Intro to Cave, which I'm confident I could pass and have fun, I could see a little more.

Or who knows, maybe I do catch the cave bug and I'll be back next year

Hey repat,

I went to Mexico in 2016 for a wedding. I figured since I'd never been to Mexico before I should go for a few dives. I booked one cenote, one ocean and one Cozumel (took the ferry from Playa Del Carmen). I wasn't expecting much from the cenote dive but it turned out to be my favourite dive. Was absolutely amazing. Went back to Mexico this year and did nothing but cenote diving. Actually thinking about getting cave certified in Mexico. So getting hooked is definitely a possibility.

There was no current in the caves of Mexico. A few people I know back home who are cave certified told me that Florida caves have current, are colder and possibly a little harder to dive. So getting certified in Mexico might not prepare you for diving any cave in the world.

I learned a long time ago that it is less about the agency and more about the instructor. So learning to find a good instructor is something we all need to learn. If you can figure out who would make a good cave instructor then you should be able to figure out how to pick a good guide for the cenotes. I was lucky the first time I went and got an amazing guide (found out later that dive shop I was using sub-contracted the cenote dive; so I'm not sure who my guide actually was). The next time I did a little research and went with DiveMex. The owner of the shop was amazing (he took me out on the first day). The rest of the staff ranked from great to very good.

So long as you listen to the briefing and don't ignore the warnings they give you (don't leave the cavern line, follow the guide, etc.) then you should be fine. I heard about a few people who died in the caves but I figured out things to watch out for when selecting a guide:

• Some shops will take you out for the day.
• Others will try to pack morning and afternoon dives in.
• Slow is smooth, smooth is cool.
• If they hint they are in it for the money (morning and afternoon dives) they might not be a safe operation.
• I'd rather pay $100 for a full day of diving than $80 for a morning or afternoon dive.
• A shop in it for the money will try to pack two sessions a day for $70 or $80.
• They are making $140 to $160 per day per person.
• A good shop is happy with $100 to $120 a day by doing just one session a day.
• A good shop will take out 4 people at a time.
• If they are trying to pack 8 or more people with 1 guide they are in it for the money.
• I understand basics about what to do on a cavern dive.
• If they claim max 4 divers but when I show up they have 8 divers, I'll know I cannot trust them and I have to take care of myself.
• I read enough sites about cavern diving to know what is cavern and what is cave.
• I made sure to educate myself.
• If my guide had started doing things which seems suspect to me, I'd switch shops for the next dive and be careful on the current dive (or maybe just call the dive)
• General rule for diving in an overhead environment, anyone can call the dive for any reason.
• If the shop isn't okay with that, find another shop.

These are just some of the things I used to make sure I had a good shop when I went cavern diving in Mexico.

Now I do wreck diving in Canada and I dive in virtual overhead environments (you can physically go straight up but you shouldn't because of ship traffic). I dive rule of thirds. I am more prepared than a typical open water diving. So it is less likely I'm going to kill myself cavern diving. When I was a new OW diver I did stuff that wasn't too bright because I was ignorant. Looking back, I was lucky. Having found this board and more than 10 dives, you should be able to educate yourself enough to know when someone else is letting you endanger yourself. You might not know how to cave dive but educate yourself enough to know if someone is letting you go beyond your training.

I read accident reports and think how can I make sure that isn't me. Hopefully, you aren't going to do something stupid.

I also wonder, how many people who died on a cavern dive in Mexico never heard of this board, never educated themselves beyond what one shop taught them. I'd be surprised to find out someone read the warnings from people here and still did something stupid enough to get themselves killed.