Mexican Cenote Crystal Clear

[SparticleBrane]

Precision buoyancy control....and standing on the bottom....in the same sentence?

Nice pictures, they show the environment nicely, but -- time to learn to hover.

 

[Fishstyx]

As I've said, I'm new to diving, and I appreciate the comments but after ~17 responses some of the responses are strike me as either beating a dead horse, or outright snobbery.

To ASSUME that my DECISION to stand on that rock to pose for a picture means I have no buoyancy control, is wrong.

To ASSUME that because the guide is in a vertical position, he has no buoyancy control, is wrong. (so being vertical is yet another "violation"???)

While I appreciate and accept the 'don't touch anything' principle espoused here, I find the "They won't know what they have until it's gone." to be hyperbole and condescending. I suppose there is a whole secret collection of natural wonders that you DIR uber divers keep to yourself away from us goofy tourist and untrained guides. People have been visiting above water caverns (e.g. Luray in VA) for decades and (OMG) touching things. They are still "there" and they are still spectacular.

By 12 Noon, every day, this cenote has more divers than the NJ turnpike has cars during rushour. Yet, when we arrived at 8:30 am (first onsite) I felt like our group was the first to explore this place and I was in awe (I'm sure someone will be sure to point out, again, that this was merely a result of my total cluelessness).

Frankly, I'm surprised by the level of snobbishness here. Every minor or technical transgression and opportunity to chastise and demonstrate individual DIR prowess. I expected divers to be a laid back, friendly group. Apparently not so.

I'm an instrument rated GA pilot and I don't see this level of criticism and "Gee, what did you do that for... you should be ashamed..." or "top gun" attitude on the aviation boards I frequent. General aviation is every bit as dangerous, and technical as diving so spare me the "but this could kill you justification". There's a way to constructively criticize and point things out, seen in this thread, and there's a way to be a SAKIA (thats Smart A*s Know It All for the uninitiated), seen more often in this thread.

I greatly enjoyed my trip and think the Mexicans do a decent job of stewarding and preserving their underwater resources. I expect to return and to continue diving. Next time I'll be sure to keep my pictures off this board.

Sayonara

 

[seaducer]

Dude, toughen up a bit. Nobody was beating you up. Take a look around for some threads where people get the heads handed to them.

I am not a cave diver nor do I practice or preach the DIR philosophy(though you can learn a lot if you don't tune them out), but I will say this...

No OW diver has any buisness in the type of restrictions you posted a pitcure of. I am not saying that an OW diver can not be every bit as knowledgable and skilled as a cave diver, just that the envornment in a cave like that has special dangers that only cave and wreck divers coonsider. To bring people without that training into that environment is dangerous, plain and simple. And to put new divers in that environment is really absurd. This is not a critizism of you, but of the guides who lead people in there when many of their clients should be out on the reef instead.

Yes, those cenotes are specatular, but nowhere near what they once were, and no where near what you would see in a protected cave system. Those mineral formations take hundreds, thousands, perhaps some even take millions of years to form, but are very fragile, break apart easily. Standing on, pushing off of, and banging your tank on these formations causes irrevocable damage, every time. So while you were in awe of those systems, it is partly because you were "clueless", more experienced cave divers who have been around a bit see them with a different set of eyes, because they know the difference.

And finally, diving is a self policing activity. We do not have, nor do we wish to have the type of government oversight that plagues aviation. So please do spare us the Holier Than Thou attitude you also displayed. I much prefer a flame here and there by another diver to the amount of licensing and other red tape BS that is the alternative if people just do whatever the heck they want and start dieing left and right.

The type of responses pointing out the things you did wrong were downright congenial, because you are new diver and probably don't know better. At the same time the people who posted love cave diving, and what you showed was the equivilant to ripping a Bible, so maybe take the time to understand where they were coming from in their responses.

Stick around, have some fun, learn and share. But thicken your skin up some, because we prefer not to have to worry about PC BS here also. This, much like the environment we love to visit, is supposed to be a welcome respite from the madness that is everyday life...

 

[diverrex]

Here is a photo I took in Dos Ojos Nov 2007. Notice that the stalagtite in the middle doesn't have a point. I don't think they form that way, I strongly suspect that the point was broken off by a careless diver.

 

[Jasonmh]

... I expect to return and to continue diving. Next time I'll be sure to keep my pictures off this board.

Sayonara

This is such a shame. I was hoping you would say "Next time I'll be sure to try and stay off the bottom".
Having enough control to stay off the bottom is basic diving, not DIR, or Tech Diving, or anything else. I think that you should try to take peoples comments for what they are, trying to help a new diver understand and improve, not snobbishness.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Dude, toughen up a bit. Nobody was beating you up. Take a look around for some threads where people get the heads handed to them.................Stick around, have some fun, learn and share. But thicken your skin up some, because we prefer not to have to worry about PC BS here also. This, much like the environment we love to visit, is supposed to be a welcome respite from the madness that is everyday life...

Fishstyx.....you need to listen to this guy....he is a pretty smart person. Take it from a guy who has had his arse handed to him a couple of times.....always for taking "defending my stance" too far. You do need to thicken your skin because what you see on this board is a bunch of idiots AND a bunch of great people who really care about the safety of fellow divers and the protection of our environment. From my experience, there are far more of the latter. And, as easy as it is to say "Well we should say things nicely....", we need to understand that this is an internet forum. Here, it is impossible to convey emotion or attitude in your written words. Most of the sharp words you read and interperet, you probably interperet incorrectly based on what the intent was. I would personally think that more often sharp words are people who did not intend it that way but just did not put enough words down to fully explain their position.

You touched the bottom to pose for a picture. The only circumstances that that is acceptable is in a pool. No other situation would find that acceptable diving practice other than training where we are selective about location.....this is basic respect for the environment in which we are lucky enough to be guests in. However, your pictures were very well received and I would like to see more. But a diver that cannot accept criticism or advice is, IMHO a potentially a maverick. NO diver knows everything so I believe we should all be willing to accept criticism and advice. Hopefully you can see that people on this board mean well and you just need to filter their comments.

 

[TSandM]

Fishstyx, the criticism you are getting has nothing to do with DIR, and I don't know where you got that idea. It has to do with cave diving, which is a sport practiced by cave divers, who are people who love caves. Most of us are pretty conservation-minded, because we deeply love the environments through which we are lucky enough to move. We also see (and sometimes, sadly, cause) damage.

What people were trying to point out to you is that what you were doing isn't a good thing. It doesn't matter if a hundred subsequent people did the same thing; it doesn't make any more right. Diving is conducted in neutral buoyancy, unless you are doing underwater work that requires you be negative. Being neutral in the water column means not having any impact, deleterious or otherwise, on the environment around you. We strive for that, and we work VERY hard to learn how to do it. We were sharing that with you, in hopes that you would join us and also try hard not to touch or change the cavern you're enjoying, so that the next person gets to enjoy it in the same condition.

 

[Cacia]

It doesn't matter if a hundred subsequent people did the same thing; it doesn't make any more right.

While I really do appreciate the purity of good form, there is a certain context to dive sites that offers some relativity. Sometimes I wonder how many people we lose with what is perceived as over the top conservation guilt trip. I am not passing judgement, just posing a question.

I wonder if we would convince more divers to be environmentally conscious by being less dogmatic and discussing more context to sites that range quite a bit in regards to environmental impact recieved and offer a bit of nuanced reasoning to decision the making. At times, I think as a community we lack that and might be working against our desired outcomes.

The *reefhooks are evil* argument always made me more resistant than teaching divers to discern sensitive micro environments by using an informed eye. In that case, it certainly matters to me if Sam's club will have hundreds of divers hooking onto a given barren ledge, or if we are ....say, on one of their boats tossing an anchor, in which case I usually speak up. You really have to choose your battles.

 

[Peter Guy]

Catherine, I agree with you -- not only do you need to pick your battles, but sometimes you need to make sure there IS a battle to pick.

For example, someone said you never touch the bottom because it is so fragile (or something like that). I say BS. I've been in a number of places where, like the OP says about dry caving, what's the harm? Whether it is a sandy bottom in Maui (honestly, does it REALLY matter if you put a knee down on the bottom at Ulua Beach?), a silt bottom at Cove 2 (here in Seattle -- hey the Duwamish will cover it up this afternoon) or, quite frankly, some surfaces in a Cavern/cave zone (how many have "touched the bottom" at Ginnie?).

The difference though, for the OP, is that these decisions to touch/interfere are done deliberately and thoughtfully. It is quite possible that the OP's posing on the bottom was well thought out (as I asked -- did the photographer tell him to do this pose?) and in a place where there really was nothing to harm. I don't know -- I wasn't there.

OTOH, the OP does need to get a thicker skin.

 

[Fishstyx]

So, after taking the weekend off I've decided to come back and to try to clarify a few things.

First, I'm not arguing with the reasonable guidance offered by those that know a lot more about this than I do. I appreciate the discussion and I have learned some things.

Second, what irked me was not the "hey, you really shouldn't do that and here's why", but, the redundant chastising, hyperbole, and gratuitous conclusions regarding my skill and intent starting at post 18.

As for "thin skin", put yourself in my shoes. I'm no veteran of this site or community. I'm a new diver who posted here to share an enjoyable experience. I didn't know what I did was such a faux pas (do you really think I would have posted the pic if I did?). So, I accept that what at the time I thought was harmless, was in fact bad form and shouldn't be done. It was the sour tone and content of some of the comments here that affect my desire to continue participate, not the "thickness" of my skin.

I think catherine96821 said it best. I'm at a point with this hobby where I decide whether or not to continue, I'm not invested yet. I've actually postponed spending $1500 in gear while I figure out if this is something I want to pursue. Though I've enjoyed my limited diving experience thus far (all in Mexico), diving, like recreational general aviation, is largely a social activity. The question I have to answer is this community for me? Is it inclusive and friendly or is it elitist and insular?

Anyway, it's cold here and I won't be back to the tropics for a while so it probably doesn't matter that much anyway.

Cheers