Mentors?

[CT-Rich]

CT ... one of my quirky personal beliefs is that there are very few social activities. There are social people. Social people will socialize while engaged in whatever activity, while less social people won't. Same activity, same rewarding feeling for the participants, different amounts of 'social'.



I'm pretty sure I didn't express any of that.



I'm going to be honest and admit I don't know how this connects to the topic, but it is interesting because I have never understood the bizarre hang-up people have with fixing brakes. Every time you drive you are literally one wheel-jerk away from killing people but that's fine, nobody has a hang up there. But the idea that, in your garage with all the time in the world to do a very simple job, you might screw something up and that screw up might get someone killed somehow - that hangs people up. In my language we call that very strange.

On the other hand, when as a child I asked my father why we had to do brake jobs ourselves instead of paying someone like we did to change tires, he told the story of taking his car to a shop to have the brakes done, and the car just not working right afterwards, and how he disassembled a brake and found that the shop had put the brake shoes on backwards. I did my first solo brake job at 9 and have never had a shop service the brakes on any car I've owned. So maybe my perspective is atypical.



Sigh. In psychoblather circles they talk about extroversion where people are energized by social interaction/drained by time alone and introversion where people are drained by social interaction/energized by time alone. What that means in practical terms is that when a person wants to renew themselves by engaging in an activity, some will renew more by being social, and others will renew more by breaking away from the pack.

Now I think it's pretty cool to dismiss introverts as nasty boorish people and tell them they should reflect on their attitude. While we are at it we should tell left handed people to get over themselves and just use their right hands like, well, like right people do. I'm just not sure it's productive. Fun, sure, but I don't think they will take the advice. So yes, I agree, we should do that-it'll be tons of fun, like shooting fish in a barrel. However, if you go back to my post, it wasn't really what I was addressing.

You actually called them "Some people are unpleasant to be around, some people are downright ugly, some people just don't have anyone around who could be a quality mentor." unpleasant and downright ugly may well be an alternative definition of boorish...

My premise is that mentor relationships primarily exist within a broader relationship. Family, friendship, whatever. That doesn't mean there is no such thing as a mentor, or that mentors are worthless because they don't charge. It means the advice to seek a mentor is basically wrong. The advice instead should be to build a social circle that shares your interests. Within such a circle mentoring will happen. Outside that circle...it may happen too, but as I and others have pointed out, because the incentive to mentor is the reward of thinking you are helping instead of something like a genuine interest in the person and their safety/development, it can also horribly misfire and the mentored may not be able to recognize bad advice they are given.

Your dad taught you how to fix the brakes on your car... that is great, I did it once or twice myself. Were there other mechanics in your family confirming that he was giving you sound advice? Or did you get a copy of the manual to make sure that when you did it, you did it correctly? I wouldn't think of doing it today becauseI don't have the expert training or the equipment to turn the drums/ disks myself. When getting advice, you need to A) trust the person and B) use some gauge to measure the value of the advice. Otherwise you are going on a trust-me dive.

There is a fantasy of finding a mentor who takes noobs under her wing and helps them for the joy of helping noobs, and does great good. It's just not the most likely scenario.

People actually do like taking Noobs under there wing... spend some time diving and show some initiative and these people will find you. If you don't show the initiciative, they will not show the interest. If you read in the regional forums, you will find clubs and charter boats that you can become involved with. No one will find you unless you show an interest in being found. You can have "dive" Friends where the common link is diving.

You said that both parties must get something out of the relationship. That is true, but both parties don't necessarily need to contribute diving expertise. They one can be a dive partner in the absence of others or maybe the more experienced diver is paying it forward, helping someone like someone helped them.

 

[Them]

You actually called them "Some people are unpleasant to be around, some people are downright ugly, some people just don't have anyone around who could be a quality mentor." unpleasant and downright ugly may well be an alternative definition of boorish...

Sure. I have no real problem with the idea that some people are boorish. I have a problem with the idea that being boorish is an attitude people should just think about and change.

Your dad taught you how to fix the brakes on your car... that is great, I did it once or twice myself. Were there other mechanics in your family confirming that he was giving you sound advice? Or did you get a copy of the manual to make sure that when you did it, you did it correctly?

Yikes! You do realize that how you do brakes starts with:

1) get a copy of the service manual.

Right? I mean that's what I'd call grade A obvious. As for other mechanics around, if you need a second opinion for, "read the book, do what it says" I don't know where you are coming from.

When I say I did it solo, I mean it was a type of car and brake I'd never done before. I got the book, I read it, I walked to Pep Boys and got the parts and the little cube tool. I did the job. Just like anyone can, no mentor required (though they are definitely handy).

People actually do like taking Noobs under there wing... spend some time diving and show some initiative and these people will find you.

Sure, I gave my marina neighbor example, The Expert. He loved taking noobs under wing and giving them advice. All you had to do was start prepping for a project and he would find you. He did it for the simple reward of gratitude and maybe the hope of hero worship shining from the eyes of the people he helped. But if you pulled the electrical tape off his turnbuckles you'd find a vice-grip chewed, bent, corroding mess that, if he ever actually sailed his boat (and I rarely saw it move) would appreciably increase the chances of a rigging failure.

If you don't show the initiciative, they will not show the interest. If you read in the regional forums, you will find clubs and charter boats that you can become involved with. No one will find you unless you show an interest in being found. You can have "dive" Friends where the common link is diving.

You said that both parties must get something out of the relationship. That is true, but both parties don't necessarily need to contribute diving expertise. They one can be a dive partner in the absence of others or maybe the more experienced diver is paying it forward, helping someone like someone helped them.

I basically agree with all of that.

 

[g1138]

There is a fantasy of finding a mentor who takes noobs under her wing and helps them for the joy of helping noobs, and does great good. It's just not the most likely scenario.
______
My premise is that mentor relationships primarily exist within a broader relationship. Family, friendship, whatever.

You do know scubaboard is based on mentorship. We exchange advise for nothing but a good feeling, helping others develop whether new or experienced. I see your equipment is a "Stainless steel plate, nylon webbing, a long hose, a short hose, a few regulators, a 2" SPG, ~" etc etc.
I can only assume you're using something similar to a hog configuration. And assuming your profile is up to date, you yourself are fairly new to this.

Where exactly did you pickup that gear config from?

 

[Them]

You do know scubaboard is based on mentorship.

My first post in this thread stated:

... the closest most people will ever come to having dive mentors is when they participate in a forum like this.

I think it's great. I don't think its the same.

We exchange advise for nothing but a good feeling, helping others develop whether new or experienced. I see your equipment is a "Stainless steel plate, nylon webbing, a long hose, a short hose, a few regulators, a 2" SPG, ~" etc etc.
I can only assume you're using something similar to a hog configuration. And assuming your profile is up to date, you yourself are fairly new to this.

Where exactly did you pickup that gear config from?

Here, the shop, emails/PMs, reading. I have never dived with anyone using gear even close to mine, and I've had face to face conversation (where the person could actually see my gear) with someone familiar with this type of gear once since buying my kit. All great folks giving (I hope) good advice but I'd never call any of them my mentor.

 

[TSandM]

I'm having a major problem with this distinction between helping for the reward of feeling helpful, and having an honest interest in improving someone's safety and comfort. I don't think there is a dichotomy there -- I think both things can coexist. Maybe I'm fooling myself, but I honestly believe that the information and tips I pass along to newer divers are both useful and important for safety and enjoyment. I also get a personal kick out of teaching. I always have, and I have taught everything I've ever learned to do well.

I don't disagree that the person wanting a mentor should first find a setting in which he is likely to encounter mentoring-minded folks. One doesn't really advertise for a mentor -- it's much more being adopted. Like gilldiver's wreck buddies, I prefer to help people who are determined to learn and get better, because then we both benefit more from the relationship.

I realize that I live in a very small and strange corner of the diving world, but as I said before, mentoring is almost a part of the culture, and people who are trained and experienced almost always have useful things to pass along.

 

[Them]

They absolutely can coexist. They are not connected. The existence of either does not depend on, or indicate, the existence of both. IMO.

 

[CT-Rich]

Sure. I have no real problem with the idea that some people are boorish. I have a problem with the idea that being boorish is an attitude people should just think about and change.

change is not a requirement, however if I was finding myself described as unpleasant and ugly, I think it would require a bit of reflection about how I want to present myself to the world.

Yikes! You do realize that how you do brakes starts with:

1) get a copy of the service manual.

Right? I mean that's what I'd call grade A obvious. As for other mechanics around, if you need a second opinion for, "read the book, do what it says" I don't know where you are coming from.

When I say I did it solo, I mean it was a type of car and brake I'd never done before. I got the book, I read it, I walked to Pep Boys and got the parts and the little cube tool. I did the job. Just like anyone can, no mentor required (though they are definitely handy).

Your father taught you to have the confidence in you abilities to do a critical safety job on a car. Isn't that a best case senario for advise from a more experienced diver? build confidence with better skills and broader knowledge and having fun while doing it?

Sure, I gave my marina neighbor example, The Expert. He loved taking noobs under wing and giving them advice. All you had to do was start prepping for a project and he would find you. He did it for the simple reward of gratitude and maybe the hope of hero worship shining from the eyes of the people he helped. But if you pulled the electrical tape off his turnbuckles you'd find a vice-grip chewed, bent, corroding mess that, if he ever actually sailed his boat (and I rarely saw it move) would appreciably increase the chances of a rigging failure.

You did see the part where I said you have to have some gauge about the reliability of the advice, right?

 

[chokolad]

I realize that I live in a very small and strange corner of the diving world, but as I said before, mentoring is almost a part of the culture, and people who are trained and experienced almost always have useful things to pass along.

It is a very cozy corner, I am just unbelievably happy I stumbled into it by accident. And in that corner mentors are everywhere .