Mentoring a new diver the minimalist way

[gonphishing]

Without having seen web monkey dive, how would you know?


waste of my time. I dont do pissing contests. just be sure you dont piss up wind.

 

[Luis H]

carful what you ask for. now you will ( need ) a M & B !!!

I like those wetsuit tops with the attached hood and zip down... and beaver tail. Where do you get those? Do they have a web site?

Thanks

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

No ... THESE potshots ...























THOSE potshots ... sounds like something you'd hear from some freshly-minted DIR dude who suddenly thinks his **** didn't stink because he's just realized there's more than one way to dive and somehow thinks he's better than all the folks doing it the "other way".



Of course you will ... and although I think what you're doing is a really neat idea, I'll think less of your opinion because of the way you choose to express it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I get the feeling you work somewhere in the industry, is that true?

You cannot deny that training has suffered over the years with almost all OW agencies
accross the board. The bigger the machine gets the more fuel it requires to keep it running. Agencies need more sources of people to run through their system to take more classes to become DM's to become instuctors to teach more students, and all the while the standards get decreased to be able to accept people that are younger or weaker, or more overweight, or not as comfortable in the water, can't handle their gear, or can't swim or tread water well or whatever. The dive shops capitalize on all this by selling gear that compensates for all these inadequacies like big poofy jackets with levers, new fins that don't require much effort to use, dry snorkels so people don't have to be bothered with knowing how to clear a snorkel, fancy computers so people don't have to waste time learning the basic tables (no time for that. They need to get the next class in - that's another $300 bucks a head waiting) and the list goes on. What about the classes. Every single little thing is a specialty and requires another card and more money. So with all this you're telling me it's not a fleecing machine?
If you want to believe there is no fleecing machine then fine don't believe it. I've demonstrated way beyond reasonable doubt that it is a fleecing machine and at 100% markup on most items in a dive shop (which is one of the only industries left to enjoy such a healthy markup) this only adds a little icing on the cake.

I'm so glad I live in a free country where we are allowed to expose things we see as, in a way, corrupt or dishonest. I see the whole established dive industry as bordering on a conspiracy. I don't necessarily think this was intentional, but it seems that this pattern I described kind of fell in place. Now days I think they see what they have and will go to any length to protect the machine that has developed. It's all corporate big business.

I am a radical of sorts. I, on my own, removed myself from the dogma of what the standard is today. I saw many pitfalls with how it is now. All this was actually way before I was on scubaboard and knew any of the other minimalists here.
I even went as far as to develop my own minimalist backplate called the freedom plate because I couldn't find anything that suited my imagination of the direction I wanted to go in diving, so I created my own.

I don't regret posting the initial thread about the mentorship one bit. I like food for thought, and given my foreward thinking views I thought some people might be enlightened by the minimalist idea. I knew there would be some flack from naysayers but it went a little futher than that. I'm not surprised though.

When you say "potshots" I see that as "debating". that's why I like this country, becase we are allowed to debate ideas without going to jail.
Before there can be a debate, there has to be a conflict. If we are all on the same page there is no conflict. So, I point out what I see wrong and you call it potshots and presto we have a conflict. If everything was honky dory why then would so many of us decide to seek out minimalism?

It reminds me of one particular political party that claims they are all into freedom of speech and liberty, but as soon as someone disagrees with them they call them fascists when in reality THEY are the fascists.

Sorry that you see my independant thinking as a threat to you somehow.
Sorry to say it but minimalism is here to stay.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

waste of my time. I dont do pissing contests. just be sure you dont piss up wind.

... but that's exactly what you ARE doing ... are you really so dense you don't see that?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Teamcasa]

Keeping in the spirit of this forum, that being a friendly place to post question and gather information, let us stay on point, that being - Minimalist training via a mentor.

I think that once a diver gets certified, they automatically become responsible for their diving and more importantly, their decision to get more training.

If someone freely chooses to get additional training from a mentor then so be it, it is their choice. Will a dir/gue/cave/vacation/commercial/public safety diver find some reason to find fault in the decision, no doubt but so what? They have their diving mind set, minimalist's divers have their style.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I get the feeling you work somewhere in the industry, is that true?

I've made no secret of the fact that I'm a dive instructor. But don't just judge me based on that one piece of information ... before you judge anyone, you should learn something about them. I have a long history right here on ScubaBoard, and my views are well-represented here.

You cannot deny that training has suffered over the years with almost all OW agencies
accross the board. The bigger the machine gets the more fuel it requires to keep it running. Agencies need more sources of people to run through their system to take more classes to become DM's to become instuctors to teach more students, and all the while the standards get decreased to be able to accept people that are younger or weaker, or more overweight, or not as comfortable in the water, can't handle their gear, or can't swim or tread water well or whatever. The dive shops capitalize on all this by selling gear that compensates for all these inadequacies like big poofy jackets with levers, new fins that don't require much effort to use, dry snorkels so people don't have to be bothered with knowing how to clear a snorkel, fancy computers so people don't have to waste time learning the basic tables (no time for that. They need to get the next class in - that's another $300 bucks a head waiting) and the list goes on. What about the classes. Every single little thing is a specialty and requires another card and more money. So with all this you're telling me it's not a fleecing machine?
If you want to believe there is no fleecing machine then fine don't believe it. I've demonstrated way beyond reasonable doubt that it is a fleecing machine and at 100% markup on most items in a dive shop (which is one of the only industries left to enjoy such a healthy markup) this only adds a little icing on the cake.

You're welcome to your views. I chose early on to become an independent instructor because I didn't like the choices that people working for dive shops have to make in order to remain financially viable ... and it's not why I got into dive instruction.

On the other hand, I don't believe for a moment that the vast majority of people who work in the industry are in it to fleece anybody. They do it for the same reasons you and I do ... they just use a different approach and attitude.

Unless someone gives me a reason to, I prefer not to ascribe nefarious motives to why they do it their way. And I don't think that approach really contributes anything to the education of divers.

I'm so glad I live in a free country where we are allowed to expose things we see as, in a way, corrupt or dishonest. I see the whole established dive industry as bordering on a conspiracy. I don't necessarily think this was intentional, but it seems that this pattern I described kind of fell in place. Now days I think they see what they have and will go to any length to protect the machine that has developed. It's all corporate big business.

OK ... I don't think there's any "conspiracy" per se ... but you're right, it's business. We don't live in an ideal world ... you and I both choose to help other divers in different ways. Nothing wrong with that. But slamming others who are trying to help in their own way crosses a line, and creates divisions that don't need to be created.

I am a radical of sorts. I, on my own, removed myself from the dogma of what the standard is today. I saw many pitfalls with how it is now. All this was actually way before I was on scubaboard and knew any of the other minimalists here.
I even went as far as to develop my own minimalist backplate called the freedom plate because I couldn't find anything that suited my imagination of the direction I wanted to go in diving, so I created my own.

Like I've said ... you're displaying (and admitting to it) the very attitude so many find repulsive in the vocal few DIR adherents who give that diving style a bad image. Perhaps you don't give a crap what others think ... neither do most of them ... but in the end, that always boils down to ego.

I don't regret posting the initial thread about the mentorship one bit. I like food for thought, and given my foreward thinking views I thought some people might be enlightened by the minimalist idea. I knew there would be some flack from naysayers but it went a little futher than that. I'm not surprised though.

I'm glad you're helping others become better divers. It's something I like to do, and encourage in others. Someone else's particular diving style doesn't really concern me ... there's many different ways to "do it right", and as you've pointed out, the conditions you dive in and the reasons why you dive have more of an influence on your choices than anything else.

Doesn't mean you need to put down how other people do it.

When you say "potshots" I see that as "debating". that's why I like this country, becase we are allowed to debate ideas without going to jail.
Before there can be a debate, there has to be a conflict. If we are all on the same page there is no conflict. So, I point out what I see wrong and you call it potshots and presto we have a conflict. If everything was honky dory why then would so many of us decide to seek out minimalism?

Nothing wrong with debate ... or even conflict. But when it's expressed disrespectfully, it goes beyond debate and becomes more like blatant chest-thumping.

It reminds me of one particular political party that claims they are all into freedom of speech and liberty, but as soon as someone disagrees with them they call them fascists when in reality THEY are the fascists.

Ah ... somehow I kind've figured that'd come up ... you seem the type. Let's take that conversation to The Pub, shall we ???

Sorry that you see my independant thinking as a threat to you somehow.
Sorry to say it but minimalism is here to stay.

Once again you've missed my point. I truly don't care how you dive. And I don't see anything "independent" about how you dive ... people have been diving like that for decades. You're simply surrounding yourself by like-minded people and calling everyone who doesn't do it your way names. That's not my notion of independence.

Your message has become lost in the manner you've chosen to deliver it. That's too bad ... could've been a good discussion. But you and others have chosen to discuss it in a way that's disrespectful of a lot of hard-working, and very knowledgable people. Respect works both ways ... if you don't choose to show any, don't expect to receive any in return.

You are no threat to me at all ... why would you be? I was simply pointing out that if you guys don't want to be judged, try not to be so judgmental ...

If someone freely chooses to get additional training from a mentor then so be it, it is their choice. Will a dir/gue/cave/vacation/commercial/public safety diver find some reason to find fault in the decision, no doubt but so what? They have their diving mind set, minimalist's divers have their style.

Sure ... and it sounds like the same "We're better than everybody else" BS we hear from other diving cliques ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I went back and re-read my initial post and see why you got a rash over this whole thing.
Being that you're in the industry I can understand you're a little sensitive when someone trashes insrtuctors and dive shops.
I'm sure you're a fine instructor and being that you are from the PNW with the cold water and other conditions your instruction I'm sure is better than the global standard.
Not all instruction is created equal, you know that.

There are going to be a few eggs broken, that's just the nature of the beast.
I'm not a passive resistance kind of guy. If you shoot at me I'm going to shoot back. The shooting actually started way before this thread and I'm not the one who took the first shot. The opposition thinks I took the first shot simply because I mentioned minimalism. "Those DAMN minimalists @#$&*!"

One difference between the way DIR and minimalists convey their message is that DIR was against everybody simply because of their extremely strict gear configuration protocols. In their school it had to be "my way or the highway" because in true DIR training there is absolutely no room for interpretation.
Minimalism offers much more freedom, but there still is a basic fundamental that defines what minimalism is. If someone decides to use stuff that's not necessarily minimalist, fine, but then don't call yourself minimalist. The difference is that we will still dive with you.

I outlined what sparked the minimalist movement. Just like any other resistance movement there will be fierce opposition with name calling and hurt feelings.

Sorry dude, I guess that's the way it is.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Sure ... and it sounds like the same "We're better than everybody else" BS we hear from other diving cliques ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Nope, that's not it at all. We simply want to introduce a alternative way of diving.
Tech divers are better equipped and have the training to do deep extended range dives so they are better in that respect. Cavers do the cave thing and they are better at that.
Minimalists are better at doing shallower reef dives where top speed and agility is required for a specific task due to the extremely minimal profile and technique.
I never once said we are better than everybody else at all types of diving.

 

[captain]

This tread went off track when Web Monkey got all dramatic about how ZKY was not an instructor and was violating training standard (his) and was headed towards a train wreck and someone would die.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

This tread went off track when Web Monkey got all dramatic about how ZKY was not an instructor and was violating training standard (his) and was headed towards a train wreck and someone would die.

Yes you're right, back to the topic.

So anyway, there's a big local group of us that are going to do a minimalist dive in a few weeks somewhere up here on our coast. Just in the last few days interest has grown leaps and bounds and we have about 10 people showing up and there will probably be more.
People are really excited about it.