Maximum END

[ianr33]

But what gas are you going to do it on?

Excellent point

Not one of your standard ones. Maybe GASP!!!! Air??????

 

[jjones9527]

If you are planning a dive where you may drop below 100' then 30/30 is your gas of choice. Its not about pushing limits, its about being conservative. If I was planning a dive where I expect to be at 150' for most of it, I would likely choose 18/45 vice 21/35, as theres not much point of riding the line. 100' is the GUE MOD for 32%, and going deeper on that gas is not DIR.

 

[ianr33]

100' is the GUE MOD for 32%, and going deeper on that gas is not DIR.

So whats with the +/- 30 feet?

<No dives are to exceed an Equivalent Narcotic Depth (END) of 100 feet (+/-30 feet)>

Seriously,I'm confused here.

 

[Rainer]

100' is the GUE MOD for 32%, and going deeper on that gas is not DIR.

I'd rephrase: 100' is the GUE MOD for 32%, and going deeper on that gas is not recommended by GUE. Just leave it at that (it's really a bit shallower if you want to keep to the new 1.2 PPO2 for cold water, but whatever). Again, it's a conservative organization. If that's not for you, move along. If you want to drop down to 110' on 32%, or even make a team decision to standardize on 28% to 120', well, you'll eventually have the training to make those decisions (you probably have the relevant training now, it's just a question of whether or not you want to follow what GUE has to say). Just know they won't be GUE's recommendations. No one is going to lose sleep over whether or not you want to listen. It certainly isn't for everyone. It's just "a" system. Do whatever you want.

 

[jjones9527]

GUE Rec 1 has a max depth of 80ft, Fundamentals max depth of 60ft, Rec 2 is max depth 100ft (+/- 10ft) but is a tri-ox course, so END should not exceed 100ft, although it doesn't seem to be expressly stated. The standards are here http://www.gue.com/Training/Standards/GUE_Standards_2006_ver4.pdf 130ft is well beyond any MOD of 32%, and GUE just does not dive air period. Also 1.4.1 and 1.4.2 states maximum PPO2 and END limits for training.

 

[Rainer]

GUE Rec 1 has a max depth of 80ft, Fundamentals max depth of 60ft, Rec 2 is max depth 100ft (+/- 10ft) but is a tri-ox course, so END should not exceed 100ft, although it doesn't seem to be expressly stated. The standards are here http://www.gue.com/Training/Standards/GUE_Standards_2006_ver4.pdf

Those are training standards. Nowhere does GUE tell those having passed fundies to stay <60'.

 

[limeyx]

As I understand it DIR suggests/mandates that no diver should ever go below 100 feet without some helium in their tanks.

By that reasoning I could dive 32% nitrox a mile back into some complex silty cave and be following the *rules* provided my max depth is 100 feet.

But if I go to 101 feet in Cozumel on 32% then I have sinned.

This makes no sense to me.

Comments?

I think that it's about recognizing the tradeoffs. Given the range of GUE diving, from recreational to miles back in a cave, I think that it's hard to make simple rules that are correct in 100% of the situations -- you would end up with far too complex or too many rules.

Yes, you could dive 32% a mile back into a cave, and yes you could dive helium, and might choose to for a lot of good reasons.

I think maybe helpful to instead of looking at the rules as saying "I can't do X and Y" it's best to look at the guiding principles they come from.

END limits are to keep a clear head.
PPO2 limits to avoid toxing.

Also, usually GUE MaxPPO2/END are "averages for working part of the dive"

So if you are doing a warm-water dive, no penetration, no deco -- I dont think anyones going to take your card away for dropping down to 110 for a few minutes.
If you spend the whole dive at 110 or 120 and incur deco -- that's more serious.

Same with back in a cave -- you make the tradeoff.

The ability to make these tradeoffs cannot really be learned on the internet, and are also hard to learn from a 5-day class. The best way to really get a feel for it is to dive with people who have experience at the higher levels of diving.

GUE are not the scuba-police.

The *rules* say that if you go a mile back in a shallow silty cave, you need to take appropriate precautions -- which may include different gas selections.

It's a bit like speed limits on the roads. Usually they are a "max" but in suboptimal conditions, it's fine to go slower for safety, and if the cops aren't around, it might be OK to go 10% faster for a while (hmmm, thought I had just said GUE weren't the Scuba-police!)

 

[jjones9527]

Those are training standards. Nowhere does GUE tell those having passed fundies to stay <60'.

True, I thought we were talking about training limits, not qual limits.

 

[Rainer]

True, I thought we were talking about training limits, not qual limits.

In that case, as you posted.

 

[limeyx]

So whats with the +/- 30 feet?

<No dives are to exceed an Equivalent Narcotic Depth (END) of 100 feet (+/-30 feet)>

Seriously,I'm confused here.

+/-30 does seem a bit large (especially the '-' -- is it really out of standards to have an END of less than 70 -- in fact I dont think so, as it's OK to deco on 50/25 at 70 feet which by definition is outside that range

I think you have to look at the +/- 30 for the really deep dives, and for the kind of diving most of the rest of us are doing, it's really easy to keep it to +/- 10 feet or so. Maybe on some of the more exotic mixes it's just really difficult to keep closer than +/-30 if you are diving at 400+ feet ?

If you look at the GUE standard gases, they all fit the 100+/- a few really well for the diving 99% of us will do.