Maui Shore Diving

[FortWorthDiver]

Wife, 3 year old daughter and I will be on Maui (Kaanappali) from Januray 22nd until February 2nd. Any suggestions on a shore diving guide, or group, that heads out to beaches where the wife and daughter can play while I dive?

Mahalo

 

[sea nmf]

Old airport beach is a nice beach and a decent dive (shallow). Check out this link:

Home Page

 

[diversteve]

PM Tim - Kidspot here. He's a freelance instructor in that area and often seems to be willing to dive around his schedule.

Pacific Dive in Lahaina does shorediving at Airport Beach and nearby. They had a local buddy contact sheet last time I was there.

Or if you're willing to drive south, you could meet up with Shaka Doug closer to Kihei. He runs a dive bus there. He doesn't work north though, something about his permit.

 

[TheDavil]

I'll second Shaka Doug (Welcome to SHAKA DIVERS Web Site!). He's flexible on dive spots - just explain what you're looking for, I'm sure he can accomodate.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

As hinted by sjspec, commercial ocean activities in Maui County are regulated. An operator must have a permit to legally guide/teach at Maui Beach Parks. Similar to the transient vacation rental situation here, the permit process broke down a few years ago. All the existing permits are grandfathered and no new ones have been processed for years because the county has not come up with any policy on how to apply.

There are less than 20 permits on the books for diving, so most of the instructor/guides for hire are working under the umbrella of one of the grandfather permits (like me). Shaka Doug is fortunate to have a permit of his own. Each permit lists the beach parks the operator can legally conduct business from. Most permits are either for the West Side or the South Shore, not both, so Shaka Doug most likely is only legal to guide for hire on the South Shore.

There are also many poachers, independents who work under the radar, not paying taxes, fees, and often having insufficient liability insurance in some peoples opinions. Summer of '05 the County said they would announce the progress on the new permit process in Oct '05. No announcement was ever made and the county parks and recreation department has not responded to my emails. It's easier to get a permit to grow pot here!

 

[kidspot]

As stated above give a call to Pacific Dive up north (Lahaina area) or Shaka Doug down south (Kihei) both will treat you well and you'll come out of the water with a big smile on your face

Drop me a PM before you come and if my schedule permits we can do a dive or two together, I'm always looking for new buddies.


Aloha, Tim

 

[KrisB]

There are also many poachers, independents who work under the radar, not paying taxes, fees, and often having insufficient liability insurance in some peoples opinions. Summer of '05 the County said they would announce the progress on the new permit process in Oct '05. No announcement was ever made and the county parks and recreation department has not responded to my emails. It's easier to get a permit to grow pot here!

A couple quick things to add on beach permits:

1. They're needed only for county beach parks. There is a dive site (Mile Marker 14) that doesn't require use of a beach park (and also has no facilities) and can be used perfectly legally by non-permitted individuals.

2. Even to use the county beach parks, they're only required for *commercial* activity which means there was a service contracted for. If there is an instructor that is not charging for the beach instruction, they're not violating the rules as there's no contract.

3. All active PADI (not sure on other agency requirements) Instructors will have a minimum of $1,000,000 liability insurance. I know that I have Maui County named as additional insured, too.

4. Hotel operations often don't have beach permits at all -- they don't need them, as they're not typically using a beach park to access the ocean, as their property gives them access. (The beach park ends where the vegetation ends -- the sand is state property). This breaks down when they decide to do an "off-site" dive using a beach park, perhaps without the correct permits.

As for future permits -- the last I heard was that they were trying to reduce commercial usage by upwards of 90%. So it's unlikely we'll see any new permits issued in the next several years, and as people forget to renew and/or go out of business, the current ones will disappear too.

As halemano said: it's easier to get a permit to grow pot here than it is to start a vacation rental or beach-based activity business!

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

With regard to insurance, instructor/DM insurance only covers diving, it is not business insurance. Dive gear, kayaks, surfboards, private boats; if something happens on the path to or fro the activity, like one person falling and/or equipment dropping on an arm or leg, dive insurance might not cover it. That is just a couple possibly non-covered situations. My current position requires $2 million in dive coverage, and I am covered on land by the business insurance.

It would be hard to get the contract for a diving concession at a major Maui resort without permits for the popular shore dive sites. I have worked at 80% of the Wailea resorts and each contractor has permits for Ulua and Makena Landing at the very least. Stairways and Polo Beach are also listed on a couple of those. The only one I haven't worked at is the Four Seasons and I would expect the same from them.

All of the businesses that have permits are worth a pretty penny because of the permits. If the business is sold the permits go with (as I understand it), same as the Molokini dive boat permits.

As far as non-Beach Park commercial enterprise, the county may or may not agree with your assessment, but I think they might only agree after extended judicial proceedings, and even then only for the time it takes them to eliminate that loophole. I would be very low profile if I were to market something like a non-Beach Park double scooter afternoon to the Carthaginian and Manta Way.

 

[KrisB]

With regard to insurance, instructor/DM insurance only covers diving, it is not business insurance. Dive gear, kayaks, surfboards, private boats; if something happens on the path to or fro the activity, like one person falling and/or equipment dropping on an arm or leg, dive insurance might not cover it. That is just a couple possibly non-covered situations. My current position requires $2 million in dive coverage, and I am covered on land by the business insurance.

Ahh, that's what you were meaning. I'm sorry.

It would be hard to get the contract for a diving concession at a major Maui resort without permits for the popular shore dive sites. I have worked at 80% of the Wailea resorts and each contractor has permits for Ulua and Makena Landing at the very least. Stairways and Polo Beach are also listed on a couple of those. The only one I haven't worked at is the Four Seasons and I would expect the same from them.

I realize this is going to sound rather attacking, but it really isn't meant that way, honest. I just can't think of another way of wording it.

Have you actually *seen* these permits? The people I've spoken to that commented about the hotel ops not needing them (people that have run / worked at the hotel ops) privately admitted that though there is a claim made that they have them, they don't really.

All of the businesses that have permits are worth a pretty penny because of the permits. If the business is sold the permits go with (as I understand it), same as the Molokini dive boat permits.

Yeah, that whole transferability thing seems a little grey. It seems there are some circumstances when you can transfer some or all of the permits, and others when you can't.

It would stand to reason that if a dive op could sell the business and the permits went with it, that they'd be able to just sell the permits. And I'm reasonably certain they can't do that.

As far as non-Beach Park commercial enterprise, the county may or may not agree with your assessment, but I think they might only agree after extended judicial proceedings, and even then only for the time it takes them to eliminate that loophole. I would be very low profile if I were to market something like a non-Beach Park double scooter afternoon to the Carthaginian and Manta Way.

It's a jurisdictional issue. The county has no jurisdiction on state lands -- in the case of MM14, there's a rumour that you'd need a state commercial permit, but there is no process for that, either, and no enforcement. So, for all intents and purposes, there's no permit required.

There aren't many sites that lend themselves to this. White Rock was looking possible, too... but then it appears the county has purchased the vacant land you have to cross, making the permit necessary.

Airport Beach is different, in that it is private property. No county permit is required (nor available), but the property owners have forbidden commercial activity, according to their signs. Some operators claim they have some sort of permit, but I think it also boils down to zero enforcement means free-for-all.

Also interesting to note is that there are several beach parks for which no commercial activity is permitted, regardless of whether they're named on your permit. These include Puamana and Luaniupoko (sp?) and specified areas of Kalama/Cove Park. Remember that commercial activity includes surf schools, not just dive ops.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

As we drift farther and farther from the topic of this thread, I apologize in advance for the following boring comments that are probably only of interest to KrisB, although they may be educational (even for me if someone corrects any mistakes I make).

Have you actually *seen* these permits? The people I've spoken to that commented about the hotel ops not needing them (people that have run / worked at the hotel ops) privately admitted that though there is a claim made that they have them, they don't really.

Yes, I saw what appeared to be permits at all 4 of the resorts I have worked for. The resorts are not interested in any more legal liability that they already have. Three of the four I have worked at I'm sure of the permits. If the South Maui resort diving contractors were not permitted for Ulua and Makena Landing someone from the dive shops and independents that are permitted would have turned them in (if they knew about it).

Beach Activities Maui, aka 5-Star Diving, aka Scuba Luv (?), has the most resort locations on the Island, and either has/had one permit that list both West and South sites or two permits, which kind of makes them the Walmart of Maui resort diving (similar to Maui Dive Shop). None of the resort operators need permits to dive off the beach in front of the resort (or Wailea Beach in the case of the Wailea Marriott - which has no beach). If those comments were made by folks affiliated with BAM that's very interesting. :11:

Yeah, that whole transferability thing seems a little grey. It seems there are some circumstances when you can transfer some or all of the permits, and others when you can't.

It would stand to reason that if a dive op could sell the business and the permits went with it, that they'd be able to just sell the permits. And I'm reasonably certain they can't do that.

AIUI, the permit is assigned to the business, not to an individual person. Nobody would buy just the permit as you would also have to have the business to use the permit!

It's a jurisdictional issue. The county has no jurisdiction on state lands -- in the case of MM14, there's a rumour that you'd need a state commercial permit, but there is no process for that, either, and no enforcement. So, for all intents and purposes, there's no permit required.

An interesting and not new thought, but Makena Landing is a State Park and Maui County Ocean Activities permits for both diving and kayaks list it by name. The State has a Law that no commercial business may be conducted on any beach, similar to the Counties Law that no commercial business may be conducted in any Beach Park. As far as the State is concerned, at the very least a business must have a GE license, although that is neither expensive nor hard to get. Then you are also supposed to give the State it's cut of the Gross (tax).

The commercial business is legally done at the physical location of your brick and mortar location. No financial transactions are leagally conducted anywhere but the store. That may require a land line phone (forwarded to cel?) at the address listed on the permit, and payment made either at that physical location or by cc over the phone.

Additionally, no hawking or sales are allowed in the Beach Parks, so as you are suiting up for your dive at Ulua, if a tourist asks about diving all you are allowed to do is give them a business card and tell them to call or check out the web site. As I understand it, even a rack card would violate this ordinance, as well as saying "guided shore dives are $xx.xx" as you walk off to the water (even if the tourist asked "how much are guided shore dives?"). As you stated, enforcement, especially of the above interpretations, is currently non-existent. Just wait until all the illegal TVR's are shut down, those enforcers will find other laws to enforce.

Airport Beach is different, in that it is private property. No county permit is required (nor available), but the property owners have forbidden commercial activity, according to their signs. Some operators claim they have some sort of permit, but I think it also boils down to zero enforcement means free-for-all.

Airport Beach is also the location of the last Maui resort dive fatality that I am aware of, back when 5-Star Scuba was owned by Mike Kelly/BAM. Shortly after that 5-Star was sold (at least on paper) and now is only a contractor to BAM. Considering that history, many of your comments point to a possible something.