Master scuba diver - why the negativity?

[String]

I think that MSD would be a lot more respected if it put the student into a position (real or simulated) where they were acting as the most experienced/most responsible diver on the dive.

That would directly compete with Dive Master though which is their leadership qualification of choice so not good financial sense to them.

As much as BSAC manage to do wrong lately at least all their grades have assessments on dive leading by example, demo and repeat all the way through from ocean diver onwards.

NAUI "master diver" has similar theory to divemaster. Neither are exactly "masters". They're both relatively easy recreational qualifications at the end of the day.

The liability thing just isnt true. Im not aware of anywhere civilised that *requires* a divemaster by law. It isnt a mandatory role, you don't need one to dive and all agencies train divers to in theory be able to dive independently after certification (i dont count the scuba diver or clones in this as i dont think they're real qualifications). You're not in a commercial role, you don't need any more insurance, you're just diving. For fun. People scream libel and take it too far without ever backing it up with actual cases.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

More envy too. I've never looked at a cert card and thought, 'god damn I'd give my left foot for that.'

Full Cave..... Just mine. I never can get to where the training that I want is.....

Perhaps ... but they're not half as much fun to produce ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

No! Not fun to produce. Fun to PRACTICE for production........

Yes, when theres a mass debate, you're often in the thick of it.

Well played.

Diving is like snowboarding and sex. Even if you are not very good - it is still fun!

Diving and sex are like pizza- Even when it's bad, you never turn it down.:cool2:

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The biggest flaw with the MSD program is that it is not cumulative. I mean that (with the exception of rescue diver) the courses are independant specialities and do not enable reinforcement of prior learning. This means that core aspects, like basic dive skills are not refined as the student works towards the rating. Neither does the course specifically address the divers' independance in the water. It should stress issues like dive planning and dive management - where the student demonstrates responsibility for the dive.

I think that MSD would be a lot more respected if it put the student into a position (real or simulated) where they were acting as the most experienced/most responsible diver on the dive. Only when that mindset was ingrained, would a MSD 'stand out' on a dive boat as being a competant, responsible, pro-active and able diver. The MSD should be able to act as a mentor to less experienced divers - but I don't feel that this is achieved with the existing program.

This is one of the most useful observations I've seen in this discussion. Scuba training ... like almost any other type of training ... is most effective when each successive course builds on the skills learned in the previous ones ... and by the time one reaches "master" status, should have covered all of the core skills one needs to not only be an independent and self-sufficient diver, but should have achieved a level of comprehension and mastery that would make this diver capable of mentoring newer divers.

If that were the goal ... and the course was designed to attain that goal ... then I think the title would not evoke the responses it does from its detractors today ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

That sort of sounds like divemaster. If you expect someone to act in that role, there's going to be some manner of liability involved, insurance required, etc. All the liability with none of the employability?

Unfortunately, I've met way too many divemasters who can't dive very well. They can mimic all the required skills to perfection, generally (usually while kneeling on the bottom) ... but many lack the practical experience to make good decisions outside of what was specifically covered in the class ... and many are incapable of doing simple things like removing and replacing a mask without hanging on to something.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[String]

Unfortunately, I've met way too many divemasters who can't dive very well. They can mimic all the required skills to perfection, generally (usually while kneeling on the bottom) ... but many lack the practical experience to make good decisions outside of what was specifically covered in the class

..and a lot of that is from zero to hero programmes which i loathe! Its a problem at instructor level too. People get really good teaching on the same site they learnt and trained all their diving career on but have horrendous problems when taken elsewhere into different conditions as have no experience to call upon.

 

[boulderjohn]

Im not aware of anywhere civilised that *requires* a divemaster by law.

Cozumel--at least for boat dives

That sort of sounds like divemaster. If you expect someone to act in that role, there's going to be some manner of liability involved, insurance required, etc. All the liability with none of the employability?

Two people diving does not make one of them a professional. There is no liability unless one of them accepts a professional relationship with the other.

 

[Downing]

I guess I've been lucky, but I've never run into anyone who wanted to brag about what a great diver he or she is or how many certs they have. There should be a cert for that: the Imajerk Card.

I'm going to do the PADI Rescue Diver course this summer in Belize and noticed that if I pick up four more certs while I'm there I can get my MSD rating. Cool! I have no interest in ever teaching scuba, and I'm too lazy to become a DM for its own sake so this seems like a viable excuse to take a few more courses, get a silly title and become, hopefully, a better diver along the way.

I already have my Nitrox card, so I thought I would do Night, Deep, Boat and...drum roll please...Whale Shark. Turns out you don't even have to see a Whale Shark to get that card but what a great card to have. I've already done plenty of night, boat and deep dives but don't pretend to know all there is to know about any of them. I'm sure I still won't know all there is to know about any of them after I take the classes, but at least I'll know more than I do now.

The only thing I know for sure is I'll have a lot of fun taking these classes, which is great because I get such a kick out of scuba diving.

The only bummer is, as I've learned from this thread, I'll have to pony up $50 for the MSD card. But hey, no one's putting a gun to my head.

Will I truly be a "master" diver? Of course not. No more than I was an "advanced" diver when I finished that course. Heck, I always thought of my OW card as mostly a license to kill my self.

And while I'll have an MSD card to show for my efforts, for me it will have been a personal journey. I'm not out to impress anyone, so I don't plan on ever picking up an Imajerk card. I just want to have fun and advance my education while I'm doing it.

 

[BoltSnap]

Question, Does PADI specify what specialties are required to earn the MSD card or any 5 specialties will do?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Any 5 will do for the most part. Nitrox, Fish ID, Boat diver, Altitude, and UW Photographer will get you a master diver card. And some of the so-called "distinctive" ones like whaleshark, manatee, and hydrooptix mask user qualify as well if memory serves. Along with AOW and rescue. So someone with one deep dive to 61 feet, one night dive, and one navigation dive from the AOW course can qualify as a "Master Diver" as long as they also have 50 dives. According to the instructor manual I have.

 

[BoltSnap]

Any 5 will do for the most part. Nitrox, Fish ID, Boat diver, Altitude, and UW Photographer will get you a master diver card. And some of the so-called "distinctive" ones like whaleshark, manatee, and hydrooptix mask user qualify as well if memory serves. Along with AOW and rescue. So someone with one deep dive to 61 feet, one night dive, and one navigation dive from the AOW course can qualify as a "Master Diver" as long as they also have 50 dives. According to the instructor manual I have.

Are you serious? In other words, if somebody collects specialty cards such as "U/W Basket Weaving" and the like would eventually end up with PADI's MSD card?