Mark of the Tech Diver!

[wedivebc]

Yes I know the case well and I personally know the guy who owned the pool. That guy was diving on a Draeger Dolphin and yes I heard he was possibly mentally handicapped.
I should clarify something here. PADI considers Draeger SCR diving like any other specialty training and a PADI instructor who has achieved the MSDT rating and has logged 20 dives on a Draeger Dolphin can self-certify as an instructor
Although I am certified as a Megalodon Advanced Trimix instructor with TDI I would have to say the toughest training I ever received was the basic Megalodon instructor rating and as instructors our performance is constantly under review, not by the agency but by the manufacturer. It is my understanding that most RB manufacturers keep a tight rein on their instructors and so it should be. I get my back up when people suggest otherwise.


BTW the diver didn't forget to open his oxygen supply he was diving a lean nitrox mix in a pool. His gas supply was empty when they found him but with SCR the gas will drain whether the diver breaths it or not so he may have just gone hypoxic from the shallow depth. Sad case at any rate.

I believe she is thinking about a certain mentally-handicapped individual who received some local training on a rebreather ... despite lacking the fundamental diving skills you will find in most AOW grads with 50 dives.

I remember trying to talk to this guy in the parking lot at one of our local sites, and coming away wondering who in hell would certify such an obviously deficient person to use a rebreather ... or even as an OW diver for that matter. When I saw him underwater, I was truly worried.

The dude ended up killing himself on his rebreather ... in a swimming pool ... because he lacked the mental capacity to remember to turn on his oxygen supply.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[WVMike]

I think all you frozen tundra guys should pack up and move to Florida to play with our turtles, sharks, reefs, ledges, wrecks, all the while surrounded by bikini clad beauties.

It was 14 degrees F here this morning, sure wish I could pack up and move. :depressed:

 

[Scott L]

It was 14 degrees F here this morning, sure wish I could pack up and move. :depressed:

It's a free country, no papers required to move about. Unless you are a career snowplow driver, ski instructor, ice fishing guide, etc. South Florida has career opportunities for most anybody. Check out these pics of dive sites just one mile off-shore of Boynton Beach, FL.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/fl...379-boynton-dive-chronicles-new-improved.html

P.S. No need to ever use your turn signals again but you will probaly need to become proficent with sounding your car's horn as well as dealing with seniors clogging the left lanes of roadways, highways and interstates. Other than all that I will label it paradise...

 

[Diving Lore]

Absolutley agree North America is a big place I have dove Florida the Spiegel Grove for example and found that a little more challenging due to depth when compared to the Galacia in Teignmouth, SW England although it had less vis and a depth of only 60ft plus some pretty big waves, most of the time they dive at slack tide so no current. When you compare Florida to the St Lawrence river I would have to say for me the St Lawrence would be more of a challenge than the dives I have done in Florida due to water temp, current, depth and low vis, both are in North America just differents areas. I am sure there are some challenging dives in the UK. I am off to Scapa Flow this May and will not make the assumption it will be the same as the Galicia in Teignmouth because it is in the UK.

I found the whole paragraph insulting he even insinuated re breather training outside the UK is inferior, apparently we hand them out to anyone with little to no training. I have no problem with the original post that started this thread.

It seems you've fastened onto some of my comments as being directed at you or americans in general. I was actually responding to someone who mentioned how re-breather divers ought not to be as high as other divers.
However there are that many posts on this thread that I don't have time to trawl through every one and answer them all.
Hence the broad brush approach that may of ruffled a few feathers

The UK is a challenging place for diving, yes some parts of the US are challenging, I never said they weren't (please point out where I said this?).

But as a whole, comparing the UK to the US it's a lot more challenging in the UK overall. The US has a huge chunk of it in the Gulf of Mexico, Bahamas, Florida. I wish the UK had such areas let me tell you.

The Channel gets rough, almost always. The water never get's much higher than 14oC and we don't have a PADI presence compared to the USA of pay-and-dive. You have to go via the club system almost always.

South-West UK off Cornwall is the best place for diving hence the diver saying that was un-challenging was using our finest and clearest waters in the UK and taking them out of context.
Please come up to Fort William in the dead of winter and give diving a try! Or maybe the North Sea off Robin Hood Bay!
You might enjoy the perpetual wet and freezing conditions

The MOTT is the MOTT whether you like it or not. I didn't come up with it, a UK tech diver did. So it is what it is folks

 

[DaleC]

Your generalization of regional dive conditions is just another indicator of the flawed logic in this "MOTT" system that you are championing. In the real world people don't dive in general terms, they dive very specifically. Generalizations bear little relevance. Saying the UK is generally more challenging than the US is like saying your MOTT 8 means your more technically advanced than a MOTT 7 (whatever that means). There are so many variables within each catagory that a simple numeric/geographic indicator means very little.

Why does this MOTT put a SCR diver at #5 before a reg switching, deep or staged deco diver? One could be a very proficient tech diver without ever going that route (and/or a very lousy SCR diver). If, as stated in #10, RB's are outside the tech realm; why are they even included in the MOTT? Either one is an OC tech diver or a RB diver. If someone is creating a technical scale for grading proficiency why muddy the waters in this way? Very "untechnical".

This "MOTT" really describes four different realms of diving that need not overlap; and tries, unsuccessfully, to rate one realm by comparing all four.

Realm one: Occasional/vacation/resort diver
Realm two: regular recreational coldwater diver
Realm three: OC Technical diver
Realm four: SCR/RB diver


Again, looking at the MOTT:

If a leisure diver is non technical they should rate a 0, not a 1 (technically).

In Canada, nearly every leisure diver who dives consistantly uses a drysuit. There is nothing technical about it to us so it could easily also rate a 0 on the technical scale.

Deco stop is before nitrox which in Canada (at least) is backwards. Many leisure divers take the nitrox course right out of OW or AOW here. There is never the slightest hint that they are entering the "technical" realm. So it could also rate a 0 technically.

Yikes, many recreational divers here also use ponies so that could also rate a 0 technically. I dive independant twins and I don't think I'm in anyway "technical".

Up to this point the MOTT really just describes the difference between what we would call a resort/vacation diver and a local, or cold water, recreational diver.

Then there are the deep, staged deco, and trimix levels which I think most would agree are within the realm of technical diving.

Then there are SCR, RB's.

Kind of a messed up measuring stick when you really look at it. Only 3/10 factors bear any real relevance to OC technical diving.




I'm honestly curious: What do you do with your MOTT rating anyways? Do you really assess each other based on this system?

The MOTT is reproduced below...

1. Leisure Diver - Non Technical. Little equipment apart from the basics required. Usually simple and straightforward. Most divers are at this level.

2. Dry Suit Diver - Divers who use a dry-suit. Stepping into Tech diving territory.

3. Deco-Stop Diver - Organisations such as BSAC teach decompression techniques to its divers. Deco stops real or simulated are a signature of Tech Diving.

4. Nitrox Diver - Divers who breath gases of more than 21% O2 to lessen Narcosis and extend bottom time. Added hazard of O2 Toxicity.

5. Semi-Closed Rebreather - Less bubbles, longer bottom times and more forgiving than a Closed Circuit Rebreather. A good intro for divers wanting to move into CCR territory.

6. Regulator Switching Diver - A diver who uses a Twin Set/Doubles with independent Regs/Manifold. Also divers who carry pony bottles as a reserve.

7. Deep Divers - Tech Divers who go deeper than Recreational limits using tec deep diving techniques and equipment. This is where the true mark of Tech Diving begins.

8. Stage-Deco Divers - Considered by many to be the Zenith of Tech Diving. Utilising multiple cylinders, air, nitrox and 50 - 100% O2. Stage Deco techniques, serious planning and complex dive schedules are utilised.

9. Trimix Divers - The depth limitations of air diving are surpassed. A helium blend is added for reduced narcosis, reduced risk of CNS/O2 Tox. thus increasing depth further. Added deco-times, travel gas considerations and special training are needed, even for experienced tech divers.

10. Closed Circuit Rebreather Divers - Considered by some the most technical of all and a law unto itself outside open circuit and even Tech Diving. Very dangerous in untrained hands.

Source: Technical Diving for Divers

 

[DaleC]

For discussion sake here's how I would rate technical diving and divers. It doesn't give one a number to brag about but it does fairly accurately describe what kind of diving you do to someone else:

Recreational diving: Kept within the NDL where direct ascent is possible. This can be subdivided into resort/vacation diving, warm water diving, cold water diving.

Basic technical diving: When one attains a ceiling, whether artificial or real, and can no longer ascend directly to the surface. There are three broad areas that require training of a technical nature:
a.) Decompression scheduling and gas volume calculations.
b.) Procedures for accessing overhead environments. This can be subdivided by the overhead environment one dives ie: caves, cavern, wreck, ice etc...
c.) Dealing with situations "in situ" when direct ascent is not possible.
This diving can be performed using plain old air but presents problems of lengthy decompression times and/or narcotic/toxic effects.

Advanced technical diving: Divers wishing to alleviate the problems associated with decompression air diving may adopt mixed gasses. All the gas mixtures available basically act either to reduce decompression times or to mitigate the narcotic/toxic effects of air. Because these gasses have different physiological effects on the body, more planning (and training) must be employed to use them. It's a little more technical.

Technical diving (RB variant): At some point a technical dive becomes limited by the sheer volume of gas required for the dive/decompression phases, no matter the mixes employed and some divers choose to address this sooner or later by using SCR or RB units.

 

[Diving Lore]

But EACH diver has his or her preference of diving depending on the system they employ.
In BSAC diving for example they use decompression techniques, a normal 'fun' diver with PADI does not. By example then a BSAC diver doing decompression diving also is at more technically proficient level of diving.
Take for example a BSAC diver who now choses to equip himself with a pony-bottle. He's now adding more and more things to consider, to work with and the technical level that he is working to increases.
I think diving has two types of people or two 'camps' as it were. The black and white coloured mentality of-
Pure Tech divers to whom all others not to 'their' style are 'non-tech divers'

Then there's the many shades mentality (the MOTT being a reflection of this) that depending on how and what you dive with and to is the 'level of technical diving' you are at or working towards.

A highly experienced diver who has been diving for years at a time may consider things like pony bottles and dry-suits as the norm but this is only because you are so used to it and it's second nature. It's still a lot more technical than a fun-diver in the tropics with nothing but scuba and a shorty

So this MOTT will divide and bring the divers into separate ideas and concepts of what is and what isn't technical but it gives us something to muse and mull upon.

 

[DCBC]

So this MOTT will divide and bring the divers into separate ideas and concepts of what is and what isn't technical but it gives us something to muse and mull upon.

To what purpose?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I think diving has two types of people or two 'camps' as it were. The black and white coloured mentality of-
Pure Tech divers to whom all others not to 'their' style are 'non-tech divers'

I think that's a pretty simplistic way of looking at it. Diving has many camps ... created by environment, interests, background, equipment choices and philosophy. Just take a look around ScubaBoard at all the different forums ... each one represents a "camp", as it were ... and those certainly aren't all of them.

Most divers in the real world belong to multiple "camps", and design their own diving style and comfort level around how those "camps" interact with each other to achieve the goals and objectives of the individual diver.

That's why I so dislike labels and categorizations ... they tell you nothing about the individual, and more often than not lead you to incorrect conclusions ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

But as a whole, comparing the UK to the US it's a lot more challenging in the UK overall. The US has a huge chunk of it in the Gulf of Mexico, Bahamas, Florida. I wish the UK had such areas let me tell you.

Out of curiosity ... have you ever dived in the USA ... and if so, where?

The US also has vast diving presences along the northeast coast, the southeast coast, the northern Florida caves, the southwest coast, the northwest coast, and the Great Lakes. Some of those areas will represent a diving population comparable to all of the divers in the UK. Each of those environments presents its own challenges that are in many ways unique to the location. Each will influence how the people who regularly dive there will choose to equip themselves, what training they will choose, and the habits they will find most practical for diving those locations successfully.

Diving is far too environment-centric and situation-centric to fit into the tiny, well-defined "boxes" that your MOTT uses. To my concern, such a "rating" system is a total waste of time, as it doesn't really provide any useful data.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)