Not really surprising.
I may disagree getting themselves in this situation. But he deserves respect for this.
Privated, hopefully to reconsider the narration.
Manatee Springs SP cave fatality
- Thread starter DandyDon
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Not really surprising.
I may disagree getting themselves in this situation. But he deserves respect for this.
Privated, hopefully to reconsider the narration.
When I went there, I left a pretty scathing comment. A few replies essentially said that if the divers were stupid enough to just do what they are told to do in the video, then they are to blame for the fatality. Perhaps there were more comments after that which gave them something to think about.
Here are some thoughts about what to do if you aren't sure you have enough gas to make it the exit. Edd Sorenson made this point in one of the classes I took from him, and he gave an illustration of his own situation when it happened to him.
He started with the analogy of driving on the highway and realizing you are very low on gas. Do you gun the engine and try to get to the gas station as fast as possible, or do you slow to the most efficient speed for gas mileage to try to get the maximum MPG?
He said the same is true when low on gas in a cave. You need to swim at a relaxed pace that will get you to the exit in the most efficient way possible. In his own case, he went for maximum SAC/RMV, saying he was casually sightseeing as he went. The last thing you want to do is make unnecessary exertions.
He started with the analogy of driving on the highway and realizing you are very low on gas. Do you gun the engine and try to get to the gas station as fast as possible, or do you slow to the most efficient speed for gas mileage to try to get the maximum MPG?
He said the same is true when low on gas in a cave. You need to swim at a relaxed pace that will get you to the exit in the most efficient way possible. In his own case, he went for maximum SAC/RMV, saying he was casually sightseeing as he went. The last thing you want to do is make unnecessary exertions.
JustCavin'
Registered
While it is true this video was reviewed by the team, it had NOThING to do with the decision to do the dive. All videos that the team watched were simply a way of learning what others experienced on their dives. The decision had been made before he videos were viewed. I want make clear that the video did not entice the divers to make this dive. That is not fair to the content creator that posted it.
I assume you were one of the ones that made the dive?
If not based on the video, what was the basis for the decision to do that dive?
I am also curious where you got this information.
Anyways I am just reporting what the NSS-CDS reported, they use quotes straight out of that video.
But I think it brings up a good point, how should we address advanced diving videos? How clear should we make it that safety procedures were done? I made this point before (in another thread about a dead diver), videos and records are like an iceberg, people only need the accomplishment, they don't see the behind the scenes work that went into them.
JustCavin'
Registered
JustCavin'
Registered
The team often referenced videos to see what other divers experience at various sites and for notable things to look for (i.e., Chicken Rock, Bone Shelf, Table Rock, etc).
Yes, I was there.
There was a small bit of assumption or lack of context in the report but I’d say the vast majority was spot on based on communications with the IUCRR the day of the accident and an interview a few weeks later.
It’s very easy to critique it now as is with most accidents. I’ve read many comments from “arm chair quarterbacks” that just don’t have all the information they would need in order to grasp the reality of the day. One even said it was Diver #2’s fault for not waiting on #3 and #4 to catch up. Diver 3 was only 10ft behind Diver 2. Diver 2 mistakingly thought diver 3 saw diver 2 point to the exit and received an “OK” from diver 3, but it was later learned that it was a miscommunication.
I won’t get pulled in too far to the specifics but I do think your thoughts are valid and are worthy of some context being added/corrected.
Except waiting to make sure the diver behind you join you on the proper line is proper technique.
You don't just keep swimming after you get the OK, you swim a short distance and wait for them to join you. If they don't join you, you go back and signal them.
Well then educate. Tell us exactly what happened, the goal is to prevent the next accident. I doubt that is much to learn from this, except what made them think that it was Ok to exceed their certification limits.
JustCavin'
Registered
I'm not going to get into a debate about it. you were not there, you don't know the circumstances, you have no idea what actually happened. I understand your point, but you are assuming things that simply do not apply. And the cert level had nothing to do with why someone died. You are not qualified to comment on experience or actual training levels. A cert card is great and is certainly the best way to measure ones ability in most cases, but as you are well aware, so many before us, and so many NOW, have not always adhered to a cert level, but rather a training level. Mike Young was almost denied entry to Ginnie when he and Tom Mount went to Demo a rebreather, because he was not CCR certified. It does not mean he wasn't fully qualified to be there. I'm certainly not implying any of us are at Mike's level but, at the NSS-CDS conference, all of you lowered your hands when John said leave your hands up IF
you've NEVER exceeded your limits. So get off the idea that exceeding a limit caused a death or you really aren't interested in learning anything. No particular cert level would have prevented the chain of events that led to his death. If that were the case, all the divers who held certs to full cave would never die in caves. Unfortunately, we all know that mistakes are made by even the greatest divers to ever live and they were taken way too soon.
While I realize the report does not detail what happened at the exit at Sue sink, I can tell you that diver 2 had no reason to believe that diver 3 was not fully aware that they were at the exit. As I stated before, he was 10 feet from diver 2 AND the exit line. All indications were that he understood what diver 2 was communicating and had "apparently" acknowledged it. Since you are so dead set on believing they could have gone up together, I assume you've never been to Sue sink.
I'm not here to challenge you because I, too, have offered my opinions on things that I have read about and thought "damn, that was dumb". All I can say is that if or when it happens to you, I hope your day has a better outcome than ours.
I've been following this post since it was originally posted and simply wanted to provide some basic facts to answer the basic questions that a few people had. I did not come here to debate or justify anything. anyone who feels like they have something valuable to add by telling us what we could have done differently can save their time and energy. There is not a day that goes by that all three survivors don't go over every possible scenario and blame themselves for various "missed opportunities". None of you get to see the detailed reports of the day, only the summary at the end. I suppose that's by design and I have to trust in those who are charged with formulating an analysis and presenting it to the public for safety awareness.
Thank you for your thoughts and comments. I know they are from a good place.
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