I'm thinking if I limited my classes to students between the ages of 17 and 35 or so, two thirds to three quarters of them might make it through that schedule in decent shape. I don't actully run into that many experienced certified divers that are overly happy doing 4 hours of bottom time in our 78 (+/-) degree water.... 2-3 hours a day is quite enough for a significant percentage of pretty active divers.
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I'm thinking if I limited my classes to students between the ages of 17 and 35 or so, two thirds to three quarters of them might make it through that schedule in decent shape. I don't actully run into that many experienced certified divers that are overly happy doing 4 hours of bottom time in our 78 (+/-) degree water.... 2-3 hours a day is quite enough for a significant percentage of pretty active divers.
wow!
I was just diving in Jamaica in 83F water and I am somewhat experienced diver (compared to new students) with over 200 dives in various conditions. No way I could do this scenario by myself let alone with hording bunch of students. This just doesn't lend to any type of quality diving and allows no slip-ups and no no unwinding between the dives. I don't see how one could produce a happy student with schedule like that.
OP
When fun becomes work - this may be another reason we lose divers.
I hear what many of you are saying... and I don't disagree with making sure people are ready to face the open ocean before we hand them a c-card, I work very hard to achieve that, but one thing I think it is possible some of you are missing is this; Diving is supposed to be fun.
If we make it too much like work, or make it seem too difficult or too dangerous, we will continue to lose retention. As an example, I once had a guy come to me for classes. He and his son had started with another shop but never finished. It seems in the first classroom session the Instructors "joked" about how they hadn't lost a student "yet" and in the first pool session the DM assisting the class told the son, if he didn't listen to what the DM was saying - he'd end up "dying out there," and the DM didn't want that on his conscience.
There is a big difference and a fine line between educating divers and scaring them half to death. Part of this what I call over-teaching. What I mean is making this whole thing seem more difficult and dangerous than it really is. Some of the most knowledgeable Instructors in the industry do this without even realizing it. They stand in front of a class of students, and they get side-tracked with a story and how it relates to what he/she is teaching. Often times somewhere in the story, a person nearly died, could have died or did die. While some people brush that off and take it for what it is - it rests in the minds of others and from that point on - they question their place in the sport.
Add to this the intensity of training.. and I don't mean being rushed. Sometimes a class is the perfect pace for ten members in the class... but that one guy feels rushed. Slowing down to meet his needs makes it drag now for everyone else. Teaching Scuba isn't easy - especially with large - mixed groups. Learning Scuba isn't easy in this scenario either, regardless of how good the instructor is. Learning Scuba is never easy - but it is much easier in small groups and private lessons. Retention rates are much higher.
I recently asked an LDS owner (whos had a successful business for more than 25 years) why people took scuba classes. He gave me two reasons. One is that it was a dream and the second was that it filled a need. Two reasons - thats it. Lets examine them.
The Student with a dream - For some period of time, perhaps since they were a child, they've envisioned swimming with the sea turtles or Dolphins or whatever. They take the step and join a class. It's all new to them... and one of the first things they find out is how dangerous the sport is. Good or bad?
The second student has a need. Perhaps they're going on a dream trip to Fiji and have signed up for a day or two of diving... or maybe they're a marine biology student at the university and need certification. They sign up... and one of the first things they find out is how dangerous the sport is. Good or bad?
I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone - because we have likely all been guilty of "scaring" students with our talk or stories... most unintentionally and without realizing it. We also - all of us - at some point have over-taught. Putting more pressure on students than we need too.. and making open-water training more intense than it needs to be. You see the most important thing for the industry right now is retention. To increase retention - the sport has to be perceived as more fun... not more hard-core. Not as dangerous and not so intense.
Some of my more intense training friends on SB and elsewhere are excellent teachers, highly knowledgeable and everyone of them means the best. They seek to turn out highly polished, competent and skilled divers who are self sufficient. They're not wrong - but they're not always right either. Sometimes more is too much. I understand the objective and I like the assertiveness towrads producing the best possible divers they can produce... but in some cases, it is too much. I'm not saying we need to teach to the bare minimum requirements - not at all.. those are insufficient... but we have to find a happy medium... and we have to watch what we're saying, the stories we tell as we relate them to skills etc... because retention is key to the future of the industry. Because of this - SCUBA must be more fun.
Fun and Safety are not opposites. They can co-exist and do in many places. Many of us in this thread are skewed by the fact that we live and teach in cold, sometimes dark water. Heck, for me... its always 45 -50 degrees once I hit 30 - 40 feet... that's year-round. I see Instructors out there wearing drysuits to teach while their students are wet. I have a real problem with that. These Instructors have no idea what their students are feeling if they can't feel it themselves. If your students are dry - dive dry. If your students are wet - dive wet. My point here is that I'm a hardy soul. I can wear a one piece 7mm suit in 45 degree wtaer and be fine for hours. I've done it for years... so if I get the least bit chilled - I know my students are freezing. If I wear my drysuit I could stay out there all day and have little perception of just how cold it is... except that I can see my students are shivering and their lips are blue... but if thats what you've waiting for - you've waited too long. You've already lost them. They're miserable.
So my point is, I hear instructors in drysuits tell students who are freezing - suck it up... it won't be much longer. Really? Get out of your drysuit and you suck it up. That's what the student is thinking. FU mister fancy pants - got a drysuit Instructor. They're not having any fun.
In most cases the same applies to longer, drawn out classes... even where you're giving them more value for their money. They get tired of the repetition. They get tired of the one more time, one more day etc... they wan't to get done with all this nonsense and go have some fun. That's what they signed up for. Fun. It's not their job (like ours,) it's their dream, it's something they need for something else... and no matter what any of us think... for 99 out of 100 of them... it's not going to become their life. All they need is to be able to dive safely and have fun doing it.
Extended courses and added skills are great for those that want them - and even the few we as industry professionals identify as needing them... but it is not for everyone. The most important thing we can do is to identify the differences between these customers who walk into our lives - and treat them accordingly. A more personalized and tailored approach to teaching will increase retention - and this includes allowing one day certs where it makes sense and can be accomplished safely.
I hear what many of you are saying... and I don't disagree with making sure people are ready to face the open ocean before we hand them a c-card, I work very hard to achieve that, but one thing I think it is possible some of you are missing is this; Diving is supposed to be fun.
If we make it too much like work, or make it seem too difficult or too dangerous, we will continue to lose retention. As an example, I once had a guy come to me for classes. He and his son had started with another shop but never finished. It seems in the first classroom session the Instructors "joked" about how they hadn't lost a student "yet" and in the first pool session the DM assisting the class told the son, if he didn't listen to what the DM was saying - he'd end up "dying out there," and the DM didn't want that on his conscience.
There is a big difference and a fine line between educating divers and scaring them half to death. Part of this what I call over-teaching. What I mean is making this whole thing seem more difficult and dangerous than it really is. Some of the most knowledgeable Instructors in the industry do this without even realizing it. They stand in front of a class of students, and they get side-tracked with a story and how it relates to what he/she is teaching. Often times somewhere in the story, a person nearly died, could have died or did die. While some people brush that off and take it for what it is - it rests in the minds of others and from that point on - they question their place in the sport.
Add to this the intensity of training.. and I don't mean being rushed. Sometimes a class is the perfect pace for ten members in the class... but that one guy feels rushed. Slowing down to meet his needs makes it drag now for everyone else. Teaching Scuba isn't easy - especially with large - mixed groups. Learning Scuba isn't easy in this scenario either, regardless of how good the instructor is. Learning Scuba is never easy - but it is much easier in small groups and private lessons. Retention rates are much higher.
I recently asked an LDS owner (whos had a successful business for more than 25 years) why people took scuba classes. He gave me two reasons. One is that it was a dream and the second was that it filled a need. Two reasons - thats it. Lets examine them.
The Student with a dream - For some period of time, perhaps since they were a child, they've envisioned swimming with the sea turtles or Dolphins or whatever. They take the step and join a class. It's all new to them... and one of the first things they find out is how dangerous the sport is. Good or bad?
The second student has a need. Perhaps they're going on a dream trip to Fiji and have signed up for a day or two of diving... or maybe they're a marine biology student at the university and need certification. They sign up... and one of the first things they find out is how dangerous the sport is. Good or bad?
I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone - because we have likely all been guilty of "scaring" students with our talk or stories... most unintentionally and without realizing it. We also - all of us - at some point have over-taught. Putting more pressure on students than we need too.. and making open-water training more intense than it needs to be. You see the most important thing for the industry right now is retention. To increase retention - the sport has to be perceived as more fun... not more hard-core. Not as dangerous and not so intense.
Some of my more intense training friends on SB and elsewhere are excellent teachers, highly knowledgeable and everyone of them means the best. They seek to turn out highly polished, competent and skilled divers who are self sufficient. They're not wrong - but they're not always right either. Sometimes more is too much. I understand the objective and I like the assertiveness towrads producing the best possible divers they can produce... but in some cases, it is too much. I'm not saying we need to teach to the bare minimum requirements - not at all.. those are insufficient... but we have to find a happy medium... and we have to watch what we're saying, the stories we tell as we relate them to skills etc... because retention is key to the future of the industry. Because of this - SCUBA must be more fun.
Fun and Safety are not opposites. They can co-exist and do in many places. Many of us in this thread are skewed by the fact that we live and teach in cold, sometimes dark water. Heck, for me... its always 45 -50 degrees once I hit 30 - 40 feet... that's year-round. I see Instructors out there wearing drysuits to teach while their students are wet. I have a real problem with that. These Instructors have no idea what their students are feeling if they can't feel it themselves. If your students are dry - dive dry. If your students are wet - dive wet. My point here is that I'm a hardy soul. I can wear a one piece 7mm suit in 45 degree wtaer and be fine for hours. I've done it for years... so if I get the least bit chilled - I know my students are freezing. If I wear my drysuit I could stay out there all day and have little perception of just how cold it is... except that I can see my students are shivering and their lips are blue... but if thats what you've waiting for - you've waited too long. You've already lost them. They're miserable.
So my point is, I hear instructors in drysuits tell students who are freezing - suck it up... it won't be much longer. Really? Get out of your drysuit and you suck it up. That's what the student is thinking. FU mister fancy pants - got a drysuit Instructor. They're not having any fun.
In most cases the same applies to longer, drawn out classes... even where you're giving them more value for their money. They get tired of the repetition. They get tired of the one more time, one more day etc... they wan't to get done with all this nonsense and go have some fun. That's what they signed up for. Fun. It's not their job (like ours,) it's their dream, it's something they need for something else... and no matter what any of us think... for 99 out of 100 of them... it's not going to become their life. All they need is to be able to dive safely and have fun doing it.
Extended courses and added skills are great for those that want them - and even the few we as industry professionals identify as needing them... but it is not for everyone. The most important thing we can do is to identify the differences between these customers who walk into our lives - and treat them accordingly. A more personalized and tailored approach to teaching will increase retention - and this includes allowing one day certs where it makes sense and can be accomplished safely.
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I have absolutely no problem with this. SCUBA is supposed to be fun, but the students have to realize that there are things that will kill them if they do not perform some of their skills correctly.
If I have a choice between making someone consider their own mortality for a moment, or calling 911 after a dive, I'll choose the first one every time.
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I've heard all those rationalizations before, Ken ... they're frequently used by instructors who hand c-cards to people who lack either the skills or confidence to conduct a dive without supervision. That may work great in places where divers are supervised by dive guides who keep an eye on everybody to make sure they're alright. But in our local waters, if you can't plan and execute a dive on your own, you have no business being there. I will neither teach nor condone a class that advances a schedule for convenience at the expense of competence ... and I have a hard time believing that you can train competence in the majority of OW students in a one-day, 4-dive checkout schedule. You'd have to show me the evidence that it can be done.
I have no problem at all telling students that diving improperly or irresponsibly can kill them ... it happens to be the truth. If they're going to engage in this activity, they need to take it seriously. That doesn't preclude having fun ... frankly, I think divers have a lot more fun when they know what to expect and have confidence in what they're doing. And I'll happily point out that nearly 80% of the students I've taught over the past 8 years are still actively diving as evidence that well-trained divers are more likely to continue diving.
I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on almost everything you said in that last post ... I don't believe an instructor is doing their students a service by sheltering them from the potential risks of diving. I don't believe you can properly instill or evaluate adequate entry-level skills by making classes shorter than they already are ... too many students are already struggling to retain what they're supposed to be learning. I do agree that there will be students who can achieve the class objectives on a shorter schedule ... but they're more the exception than the rule, particularly in colder climates where they're learning in a more physically-demanding environment.
I do not, for a moment, believe that taking your diving seriously and having fun are mutually exclusive. A week ago I had a 13-year old boy in the water on a guided dive. This was his first ocean dive ... and his first post-OW dive. I was not his instructor, and had never met him before ... so I spent some time reviewing with him some "rules" that I told him were for making sure he stayed safe and had fun. I didn't do it by filling his head with sordid tales of diver deaths ... I simply laid out for him what I expected, and why. I did it in a way that mixed humor and fun into what was otherwise a serious conversation ... because that's how you get a 13-year old boy to pay attention. At the end of a 20-minute talk we went out and had a great time. I told his father ... who trained with him so they could dive together ... that his son has a natural aptitude for diving (because he does), but that since things come so easy there will be a temptation for him to take it too lightly. "Never let him do that ... always remind him that it's only fun as long as we do what we need to dive safely." I see no conflict between having high expectations and having fun ... nor, apparently, do the divers who rely on me to train them ... many of those I've trained in the past comprise the majority of the people I dive with for fun these days ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
I have no problem at all telling students that diving improperly or irresponsibly can kill them ... it happens to be the truth. If they're going to engage in this activity, they need to take it seriously. That doesn't preclude having fun ... frankly, I think divers have a lot more fun when they know what to expect and have confidence in what they're doing. And I'll happily point out that nearly 80% of the students I've taught over the past 8 years are still actively diving as evidence that well-trained divers are more likely to continue diving.
I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on almost everything you said in that last post ... I don't believe an instructor is doing their students a service by sheltering them from the potential risks of diving. I don't believe you can properly instill or evaluate adequate entry-level skills by making classes shorter than they already are ... too many students are already struggling to retain what they're supposed to be learning. I do agree that there will be students who can achieve the class objectives on a shorter schedule ... but they're more the exception than the rule, particularly in colder climates where they're learning in a more physically-demanding environment.
I do not, for a moment, believe that taking your diving seriously and having fun are mutually exclusive. A week ago I had a 13-year old boy in the water on a guided dive. This was his first ocean dive ... and his first post-OW dive. I was not his instructor, and had never met him before ... so I spent some time reviewing with him some "rules" that I told him were for making sure he stayed safe and had fun. I didn't do it by filling his head with sordid tales of diver deaths ... I simply laid out for him what I expected, and why. I did it in a way that mixed humor and fun into what was otherwise a serious conversation ... because that's how you get a 13-year old boy to pay attention. At the end of a 20-minute talk we went out and had a great time. I told his father ... who trained with him so they could dive together ... that his son has a natural aptitude for diving (because he does), but that since things come so easy there will be a temptation for him to take it too lightly. "Never let him do that ... always remind him that it's only fun as long as we do what we need to dive safely." I see no conflict between having high expectations and having fun ... nor, apparently, do the divers who rely on me to train them ... many of those I've trained in the past comprise the majority of the people I dive with for fun these days ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
From the opposite point of view. I think my instructor made it pretty clear that behaving irresponsibly underwater was deadly. And nobody found that offensive, bizarre or... unfun.
When you enter a (not underwater) cave and the instructors are telling you not to do stupid things while rappeling on a 50ft slippery waterfall over spiky rocks in complete darkness, do you think anyone replies "I'm doing this for fun!"? No, you pay attention, grab the fricking ropes and focus.
I think it's the responsibility of the very first diving instructor, the guy who transforms surface people into underwater people, to make us understand two things. First, that the first five meters of water are not as dangerous as we think. Then, one hour later, that the next hundred are more dangerous than what we've suddenly decided.
When you enter a (not underwater) cave and the instructors are telling you not to do stupid things while rappeling on a 50ft slippery waterfall over spiky rocks in complete darkness, do you think anyone replies "I'm doing this for fun!"? No, you pay attention, grab the fricking ropes and focus.
I think it's the responsibility of the very first diving instructor, the guy who transforms surface people into underwater people, to make us understand two things. First, that the first five meters of water are not as dangerous as we think. Then, one hour later, that the next hundred are more dangerous than what we've suddenly decided.
Guys yep 4 hours of bottom time and this schedule and times are set in stone and if you can't do it then you suck and you need to never dive because your a wimp and not worthy!!!,<- sarcasm
Ok guys this is a suggested schedule, just to get your thoughts flowing on the issue. Go back and look at your cert logs and how many of you actually had 4 hours of bottom time for your cert weekend? Some yes and listening to some on the instructors they like to get their students this kind of time for the cert, others don't.Yep it makes a 12 hour day but did you notice how much down time there is in this? It's to show that you can have plenty of down time, even go take a nap if that is what the student wants to.
If you like I can give a less aggresive bottom time schedule and still make it work??
The ideas was to show you it's possible and still encompass some of the concerns of the instructors posting. If we want to be stuck on the little points and not look at the possibility of making this work then so be it.
It is more than possible to do 4 dives in one day as evidenced on live a boards so the question is really is this what is best for the students. In Bob's case no, enviromental issues, others have concerns on learning and down time to absorb information for the student. Jim likes to do more than 4 dives for his students. Those are great arguments against.
There are positives for and against but this picking apart the possible schedule is like arguing with my girlfriend, lets get on to the real issues with this, or not if your stuck on the schedule.
Ok guys this is a suggested schedule, just to get your thoughts flowing on the issue. Go back and look at your cert logs and how many of you actually had 4 hours of bottom time for your cert weekend? Some yes and listening to some on the instructors they like to get their students this kind of time for the cert, others don't.Yep it makes a 12 hour day but did you notice how much down time there is in this? It's to show that you can have plenty of down time, even go take a nap if that is what the student wants to.
If you like I can give a less aggresive bottom time schedule and still make it work??
The ideas was to show you it's possible and still encompass some of the concerns of the instructors posting. If we want to be stuck on the little points and not look at the possibility of making this work then so be it.
It is more than possible to do 4 dives in one day as evidenced on live a boards so the question is really is this what is best for the students. In Bob's case no, enviromental issues, others have concerns on learning and down time to absorb information for the student. Jim likes to do more than 4 dives for his students. Those are great arguments against.
There are positives for and against but this picking apart the possible schedule is like arguing with my girlfriend, lets get on to the real issues with this, or not if your stuck on the schedule.
Please excuse quoting such a small portion of your well-articulated post but I wanted to focus on this. There are two extremes.
- Scaring people with blunt language and training methods suitable for Navy Seals
- Scaring them with simple-minded rules substituting for adequate knowledge and instilling in them that their life depends on their equally ill-trained buddies and excessive dependence on their equipment.
I am not implying that you do either, but the second is my interpretation of what I see in far too many divers trained in the last 15-20 years who have not invested in a lot more courses.
I am a product from the 6 weeks, 6 days of ocean dives (~2x/day), 6 pool sessions, and 6 classroom sessions era and Navy Diver (salvage, not combat) training 8 years later. I look back at ~9 months of full-time Navy training and can’t point to any inadequacies in the 4x6 Scuba course. I believe all the sixes had value and interacted in positive ways. It ultimately takes about the same today for most divers to reach reasonable competency in unprotected conditions, except it is split into optional courses.
The problem is selling it, not teaching it or student retention. There is a category of people who want to go diving on tropical vacations and try the sport out. Great, set up a certification for them with restrictions for supervision under more demanding conditions, depth, decompression, etc. Then there is the category of people who are really interested in diving where a 4x6 or combined Open Water, Advanced Open Water, Deep Diving, and Nitrox course is the solution. At that point most people are skilled and informed enough to recognize and set their own limits.
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"Ok guys this is a suggested schedule, just to get your thoughts flowing on the issue. Go back and look at your cert logs and how many of you actually had 4 hours of bottom time for your cert weekend? Some yes and listening to some on the instructors they like to get their students this kind of time for the cert, others don't.Yep it makes a 12 hour day but did you notice how much down time there is in this? It's to show that you can have plenty of down time, even go take a nap if that is what the student wants to."
I get that it's a suggested schedule, but it's pretty aggressive. Even 4 shorter dives would be a lot of work in a learning situation. In my case, the majority of my students do get around 4 hours of bottom time, even the heavy breathers end up with about 3, I've had a few really good breathers approach 5 hours of bottom time on thier 4 checkout dives. I wouldn't want to shorten their dive time, because I feel actually diving does a whole lot more for them on top of the ten minutes or so of skills they're doing on their checkout dives.
"It is more than possible to do 4 dives in one day as evidenced on live a boards so the question is really is this what is best for the students. "
Now this is one I totally disagree with. A liveaboard and a shore based or small boat based 4 tank dive day are two completely different animals, especially if the water is cooler, even for experienced divers. I'm amazed at how many experienced divers can't see this. I get lots of inquiries for three tank dive outings, or 2 morning dives followed by our 2 tank manta dive by certified divers who swear that they're used to doing 4-5 dives a day on liveaboards. After years of the majority of them either blowing off at least one of the dives or cancelling the next day last minute because they're flat out wasted after that schedule, I highly discourage anyone that requests it any more.
On a liveaboard, in most cases you're dealing with a large boat, often multiple stories, with sleeping quarters, a separate living or dining area, etc.... room to move around or rest between dives, with the potential for a change of clothing, a few minutes in the hot tub or a hot fresh meal as well. On a typical day boat there's no room for that, if training lakeside/quarryside/oceanside/etc, the amenities aren't likely to match those of most liveaboards as well. It's just not the same, not even close in most cases.
Add to that the fact that we're talking students who are going through the added stress of being in a learning/training environment, it's nothing like a certified diver diving off a liveaboard multiple times in a day.
I get that it's a suggested schedule, but it's pretty aggressive. Even 4 shorter dives would be a lot of work in a learning situation. In my case, the majority of my students do get around 4 hours of bottom time, even the heavy breathers end up with about 3, I've had a few really good breathers approach 5 hours of bottom time on thier 4 checkout dives. I wouldn't want to shorten their dive time, because I feel actually diving does a whole lot more for them on top of the ten minutes or so of skills they're doing on their checkout dives.
"It is more than possible to do 4 dives in one day as evidenced on live a boards so the question is really is this what is best for the students. "
Now this is one I totally disagree with. A liveaboard and a shore based or small boat based 4 tank dive day are two completely different animals, especially if the water is cooler, even for experienced divers. I'm amazed at how many experienced divers can't see this. I get lots of inquiries for three tank dive outings, or 2 morning dives followed by our 2 tank manta dive by certified divers who swear that they're used to doing 4-5 dives a day on liveaboards. After years of the majority of them either blowing off at least one of the dives or cancelling the next day last minute because they're flat out wasted after that schedule, I highly discourage anyone that requests it any more.
On a liveaboard, in most cases you're dealing with a large boat, often multiple stories, with sleeping quarters, a separate living or dining area, etc.... room to move around or rest between dives, with the potential for a change of clothing, a few minutes in the hot tub or a hot fresh meal as well. On a typical day boat there's no room for that, if training lakeside/quarryside/oceanside/etc, the amenities aren't likely to match those of most liveaboards as well. It's just not the same, not even close in most cases.
Add to that the fact that we're talking students who are going through the added stress of being in a learning/training environment, it's nothing like a certified diver diving off a liveaboard multiple times in a day.
Do any certification agencies ask students to complete assessments or customer satisfaction surveys? Do any instructors or LDSs?
Throughout my career the single most valuable tool for improvement has been an evaluation, the more anonymous the better. I was not asked for any feedback after my certification classes and would have been happy to give it even if the feedback was not anonymous.
If a goal is continuous improvement in anything, including the dive industry,and certification agencies wanted to promote continuous improvement, sending a link to complete an anonymous evaluation of their recently completed certification would be immensely beneficial if they considered the input and passed the results on to the instructors and held them accountable. Companies I have worked for take assessments seriously and those that receive high marks typically promote the positive rating as a differentiation that rewards them for the extra effort they make to be an excellent instructor.
Throughout my career the single most valuable tool for improvement has been an evaluation, the more anonymous the better. I was not asked for any feedback after my certification classes and would have been happy to give it even if the feedback was not anonymous.
If a goal is continuous improvement in anything, including the dive industry,and certification agencies wanted to promote continuous improvement, sending a link to complete an anonymous evaluation of their recently completed certification would be immensely beneficial if they considered the input and passed the results on to the instructors and held them accountable. Companies I have worked for take assessments seriously and those that receive high marks typically promote the positive rating as a differentiation that rewards them for the extra effort they make to be an excellent instructor.
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