Major Industry Change re: Online Scuba Sales....

[redacted]

My LDS is primarily an auqalung dealer, and auqalung requires all of their sells to be over the counter. Does that mean my shop is SOL?

Not at all. Your shop has a choice of what lines he wants to carry and what line he wants to emphasize. He probably needs to keep the AL line to countinue his support of existing customers. But he better be looking to the future and the change it is bringing.

 

[ReefHound]

They can sell training, service and air, none of which can be done over the net. This will also free up a ton of money they had tied up in inventory and reduce overhead, since they won't need room for a sales floor anymore.

Training: what's to stop a LeisurePro from forging alliances with independent instructors in various areas, selling the courses, and referring them to these instructors? The consumer saves money on cheaper books/videos, and maybe even cheaper tuition fees since LP doesn't need to take as big of a cut. The instructor gets as much or more than working thru an LDS.

Service can certainly be done thru the internet. Many people already mail in their regs for service. Sure, you can't do the last minute "I'm diving in two days" routine, but service *can* be done. For tank visuals and even reg overhauls, see above - what's to stop a LeisurePro from forging alliances with local qualified repair techs?

Air fills are available at many dive sites and scuba parks, and they cost little more than at the LDS even though they are clearly not subsidized by equipment sales. Raise fills to $10 and the frequent divers will find alternatives.

The LDS needs the divers more than the divers need the LDS.

 

[mike_s]

I think it will actually be good for the remainig dive shops.

They can sell training, service and air, none of which can be done over the net. This will also free up a ton of money they had tied up in inventory and reduce overhead, since they won't need room for a sales floor anymore.

Also, once the above service costs are unbundled from sales, prices for training, repairs and especially air will take a big jump, so in the end, long-term divers who buy services frequently will end up paying more, while newbies who typically drop out after buying their first set of equipment will get a break.

Well I'm not sure if it will be good for the remaining dive shops, but I understand your point of view.

My first thought when I ready the above 1st sentence of the 2nd paragraph is that this won't work. You are abosolutely correct that this would require a huge jump in prices for air fills and training costs. Most dive shops either take a loss or make a limited amount on air fills and training.

If you factor in the cost of a new compressor, nitrox mixing panel, cascade tanks, o2 cleaning everything, filters, captital investment, labor, insurance, electricty, etc, then I'm betting that most dive shops aren't making money on air fills. Maybe the ones in the Keys are because of volume, but most aren't and just factor it as a necessary evil for a dive shop.

Same thing for open water training. The average class cost in about $230 to $250 (w/o boat checkout dives). Factor in 2 days of classroom and pool and 2 days of instructor time for checkouts, rental gear and tanks, air fills, insurance, labor costs, agency costs, pool costs, etc... I don't see how they are making much if anything.

What they are really hoping for is gear sales.

I can see your point though of charging realistic amounts for training and air fills to offset the loss of competing in gear sales, but if you raise air fill prices to $8 to $10 per air fill, then folks will just go to the dive shop across town, just like they've been going "across the internet" for gear sales. Same for training. They'll just use the much cheaper shop.


However, to follow up on Chris' post, the internet is a perfect example of how people "pre shop" on the internet before going to the storefront to purchase. (I did the same exact thing when I bought my compound mitre saw.)

My LDS is primarily an auqalung dealer, and auqalung requires all of their sells to be over the counter. Does that mean my shop is SOL?

Boy this is a perfect example of how this thing with PADI might change the internet sales routine. Aqualung and ScubaPro have always been against internet sales and also control sales price even more with their dealers. They will either change or get passed by in the industry. But they are so 'bull headed' about this change you'll see the whole industry's "jaw drop" when it happens.

Aqualung is one of those above referenced dealers that sales to grey markets but won't let their dealers do it. It's a huge double standard in the industry. There is whole thread on the problems with Aqualung. see The Aqualung Discussion Thread

It's moving that way though.... Atomic Regulators I've heard is about to announce online regulator sales.

Will the others change? dunno....

 

[redacted]

As long as there are customers looking to buy compressed gas, someone will find a way of filling the need at a profit.

 

[Web Monkey]

Training: what's to stop a LeisurePro from forging alliances with independent instructors in various areas, selling the courses, and referring them to these instructors? The consumer saves money on cheaper books/videos, and maybe even cheaper tuition fees since LP doesn't need to take as big of a cut. The instructor gets as much or more than working thru an LDS.

Nothing much would stop it, but there's really nothing much to encourage it either, since LP doesn't bring anything to to the table and would increase the cost (or take a cut from the instructor)

Local instructors could just as easily be found by putting up a web page or listing themselves on Local Google.

Service can certainly be done thru the internet. Many people already mail in their regs for service. Sure, you can't do the last minute "I'm diving in two days" routine, but service *can* be done. For tank visuals and even reg overhauls, see above - what's to stop a LeisurePro from forging alliances with local qualified repair techs?

Service is were we split. I like being able to have my stuff fixed whenever it needs it without boxing it up and sending it out. Sure it's possible, but just like my laptop, I'm not fond of sending my SCUBA stuff away for 2 weeks to get something fixed or adjusted.

Air fills are available at many dive sites and scuba parks, and they cost little more than at the LDS even though they are clearly not subsidized by equipment sales. Raise fills to $10 and the frequent divers will find alternatives.

Around here, the only place to get fills is the LDS. There are no dive sites with air stations.

The LDS needs the divers more than the divers need the LDS.

Actually, it's exactly even. In order for commerce to work, each side need to feel they're getting an acceptable exchange of money and services, otherwise, there wouldn't be any purchase.

Terry

 

[ReefHound]

Nothing much would stop it, but there's really nothing much to encourage it either, since LP doesn't bring anything to to the table and would increase the cost (or take a cut from the instructor)

Local instructors could just as easily be found by putting up a web page or listing themselves on Local Google.

There's a lot to encourage it. A new source of revenue for the etailer, who could sell more course books/videos, take a cut of the tuition same as the LDS currently does, and provide a means of meeting course demand if LDS start becoming scarce. Instructors could market themselves but you could say the same thing now yet most affiliate with an LDS. Instructors want to teach, not advertise and run an independent contractor business. Else they wouldn't be teaching through an LDS that takes a big chunk of the fees.

My point here isn't that it would be a better way of teaching or that instructors would prefer it, but to point out that the LDS is not indispensable, that an alternative system could arise to replace them.

Service is were we split. I like being able to have my stuff fixed whenever it needs it without boxing it up and sending it out. Sure it's possible, but just like my laptop, I'm not fond of sending my SCUBA stuff away for 2 weeks to get something fixed or adjusted.

The point isn't what you "prefer", the point is that the LDS is not indispensable. If all the LDS in your area disappeared, it wouldn't mean that your only alternatives are to quit scuba or fix them yourself. I said that service *can* be handled through online dealers, not that it *should*.

Around here, the only place to get fills is the LDS. There are no dive sites with air stations.

Maybe so around there. It's not like that everywhere. Do you honestly believe that if the LDS went away that you and all your buddies would simply have to quit diving? That no alternatives would arise? There are lots of places that use compressed gases, which could be adapted to service scuba tank fills.

Actually, it's exactly even. In order for commerce to work, each side need to feel they're getting an acceptable exchange of money and services, otherwise, there wouldn't be any purchase.

Terry

No it's not even, because if the LDS lost their divers they cease to exist, end of story. If the divers lose their LDS, they have alternatives to meet their needs, whether it is what they "prefer" or not.

 

[scubadobadoo]

Training: what's to stop a LeisurePro from forging alliances with independent instructors in various areas, selling the courses, and referring them to these instructors? The consumer saves money on cheaper books/videos, and maybe even cheaper tuition fees since LP doesn't need to take as big of a cut. The instructor gets as much or more than working thru an LDS.

Service can certainly be done thru the internet. Many people already mail in their regs for service. Sure, you can't do the last minute "I'm diving in two days" routine, but service *can* be done. For tank visuals and even reg overhauls, see above - what's to stop a LeisurePro from forging alliances with local qualified repair techs?

Air fills are available at many dive sites and scuba parks, and they cost little more than at the LDS even though they are clearly not subsidized by equipment sales. Raise fills to $10 and the frequent divers will find alternatives.

The LDS needs the divers more than the divers need the LDS.

LP has already done my reg annuals for the last four years and for a fraction of the price and with free parts too. And LP hired a local scuba instructor to work the floor last year too. Nice guy. I'm sure he will pick up some classes if he wants to.

That said, LP won't get into the teaching industry because they already realize that it isn't profitable. It simply takes too much time and energy to make it worth it for them. They make money by selling gear (a crap load of it) on the internet and with as little overhead as possible. They are what they are. They don't care who you are as long as the check clears. Nothing personal, and many times I prefer that actually. It's a business. They also just happen to sell scuba gear. You wanna buy some? Great. You don't? That's fine too.

As for the air fills, my closest LDS charges 10 bucks to fill my HP 80! Nice folks but 10 bucks!? :no

 

[cool_hardware52]

What has happened in most of Europe is the LDS is gone. Local clubs maintain a compressor, and almost all gear is sold online. Is this the future here? Could be.

I can see a day where you have "fill only" shops that actually charge the real cost of the fill, not some loss leader to get you in the shop.

I can see, at least in larger Metro areas, Services that do nothing but repair work, regs etc. Currently most LDS send out their customer's regs to such services. Not a huge change for these guys to "go retail"

There is nothing magic about model that combines gear sales, travel, instruction, reg service, and fills. Each of these components can be "broken off" and run as a specialty operation.

Who cares is air fills are priced at true cost, $10-15 maybe, but your gear is 20-50% less?


Tobin

 

[ReefHound]

LP has already done my reg annuals for the last four years and for a fraction of the price and with free parts too. And LP hired a local scuba instructor to work the floor last year too. Nice guy. I'm sure he will pick up some classes if he wants to.

That said, LP won't get into the teaching industry because they already realize that it isn't profitable. It simply takes too much time and energy to make it worth it for them.

First, my posts were not meant as a statement that service or training is something that *should* be done outside the LDS, but as a response to Webmonkey's assertion that these are things that cannot be done over the internet. He later conceded they could be done, just not what he preferred.

The model I postulated of LP forging alliances with independent instructors was just an example of how it could be done. In that example, there was no expense or significant energy expended by them. They would simply be using their strong customer base to generate referrals to instructors who were only interested in teaching, not sales and marketing.

Another model might be for them to hook up with Sports Chalet or Sports Authority in the way Divers Direct is doing with Gander Mountain. Don't think that just because an idea hasn't yet been tried that it isn't feasible. Unlike most LDS, online companies are typically open minded to new methods, willing to try new things and take more chances.

BTW, what makes you think LP has low overhead? They have a physical store in downtown NYC, one of the most expensive places to operate in the U.S.

As for air fills, have you checked with your fire stations?

 

[daniel f aleman]

The LDS (that which are located in non-dive locations or resorts) will return to the larger sporting goods store as a department (see Sports Chalet, World Water Sports, REI, etc.) I was certified in a such a place in 1974.

You'll have "paintball" stores that will serve divers , and of course dive clubs (which are still going strong in much of the US and Europe) with their compressor and in-house club instructor.

In the future, ALL products will be sold online.