Made in the USA

[Sas]

Flat out wrong. The United States' net borrowing (which is only about 15 years old) represents a delaying of the lowering of living standards that was inevitable once trade became freer. The borrowing didn't cause lower living standards, it was a result of it. Freer trade caused the lower living standards, and will continue to. It also caused the growing gap in welath between the wealthy and the rest. If you have capital, you will benefit from lower wages, wherever you are.

You missed my point. I did not say that borrowing has lowered living standards, I said it was used to protect living standards longer, but this is a short term solution. Borrowing delayed the inevitable but it is going to cause a lot of problems in the future. I disagree that free trade caused the lower living standards. If America had refused to trade at all with the rest of the world, they would not be as prosperous as they were today. If they had not protected certain industries they would be in a better shape than they are now.

Industries like semiconductors? We developed them here--and outsourced them to Malaysia and Taiwan. Aerospace? We developed it here--and had to transfer the technology to China to get them to buy some Boeings. Hollywood movies? A huge industry developed here--the Chinese watch them for free by pirating the disks with a wink and a nod from the government.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make here...

 

[jswantek]

You are being forced to have lower living standards because a lot of your economy has been propped up by borrowing a lot of money from other countries (and other things that don't involve free trade but I'll keep it simple). Or on an individual level thinking that it is ok to borrow money you won't ever be able to pay back to buy houses and so on. Now the country is enslaved by debt. So it is not China's fault really, that is the fault of people thinking they could indefinitely be prosperous in the face of dwindling resources and mounting debt.

Odd, everyone I know can still pay their bills, even with a crumbling job market. I don't remember asking for a loan from China. Are they underwriting my car loan now? If so, they're not the ones I filled out the paperwork with. Neither I nor anyone I know ever borrowed money without intending on paying it back. That's a poor example and an unnessecary attack.

If the US had spent time and money developing industries that were more innovative and more efficient rather than time on money on industries where they don't have an advantage and wars they will never win, they would be in better shape today.

Pump your brakes right there, period. How many of your friends died in New York? I'm not going to get into the debate over whether or not we belong in Afghanastan, that's not what this thread is about. But don't, DON'T, think that we'll never win.

The people of the United States did not ask for loans or handouts from any foreign government. We didn't, it's just that simple. If any individual is 'enslaved by debt' it is because they no longer have a job BECAUSE OF FREE TRADE, and are now having a terrible, terrible time making ends meet.

Your theory is backwards.

If China were actually IMPORTING anything American made, in a comparable amount to what they're exporting, we wouldn't have to worry about loans or borrowing money, as we would have what Americans want most, JOBS!

 

[gcbryan]

Because 'Free' trade took away the market options. I no longer have an American-made baseball cap, t-shirt or running shoe that I can buy INSTEAD of the cheaply-made garbage that comes from other countries.

So what bothers you, the fact that it's not made in the US or the fact that it's cheaply made? If it's the latter then simply buy a better cap.

American industries would NOT be failing if it weren't for free trade.

They would not be failing if they had been more innovative and adapting to change. Apples wouldn't fall from the tree were it not for gravity yet there is gravity.

Well then if protectionism means that everyone I know will be able to work and support themselves, I'm all for it. That means, in the long term, we'll be much happier. I like the sound of that long term.

It's not sustainable as you are seeing and that is the problem. Wishing that global trade would go away isn't a solution or an option.

So which is it? Are we (the United States) or are we not supporting free trade? Judging by the amount of imported goods sold here compared to the amount of American-made exports, I'd say we're getting the short end of this stick. What other things does it depend upon? What areas of the United States are benefiting from free trade?

Anyone working for any larger, global company and the local businesses where they spend their money are benefiting.

Anyone buying a Japanese car is getting an extra $2,000 left in their pocket.

What areas of the US are benefiting from trade protectionism?

Well then let's call an early end to this experiment. While the notion of 'free trade' may look good on paper and may benefit a (very) few members of the global economy, it's just not working out well at all for the United States, at least as far as I can see.

When you live in Detroit or Pennsylvania you may not be able to see very far because of the poor job protectionism has done for your economies.

 

[Slonda828]

Another fine example of a thread careening off topic. Maybe we could ask the manufacturers if their gear is made in America or not. Maybe one of the staffers could help us with that by allowing us a message in every individual manufacturer's forum without having to manually enter all the messages. I am not sure that is possible, but it is worth a shot. That would definitively answer the OP's question without a nine hour debate about macro-economics.

 

[vladimir]

You missed my point. I did not say that borrowing has lowered living standards, I said it was used to protect living standards longer, but this is a short term solution. Borrowing delayed the inevitable but it is going to cause a lot of problems in the future. I disagree that free trade caused the lower living standards. If America had refused to trade at all with the rest of the world, they would not be as prosperous as they were today. If they had not protected certain industries they would be in a better shape than they are now.

I have already conceded that free trade is a net positive. The benefits accrue to those with capital. Would the United States be better off? Yes, but American workers would be worse off. And that is assuming that what has happened over the last thirty years, say, is in fact free trade. Americans still cannot sell KFC in Bangalore, they still cannot get paid for their intellectual property, often, and when they sell Boeings to China the buyers are not profit-maximizing corporations competing with each other-- so they have to agree to turn over technology to the Chinese government, who orchestrates the trade. So decades of hard-won advantages have been squandered in a short-term push for free trade, when the other party wasn't free-trading at all.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make here...

You said we should have been innovating--I gave examples of innovative industries developed in the United States. The problem with innovating is that a technological edge is difficult to achieve, and is quickly squandered in outsourcing deals. If American capitalists were a little bit more patriotic and a little less greedy--like the Chinese, who are willing to orchestrate their economy to achieve long-term goals--then the United States would be better off.

 

[Sas]

Odd, everyone I know can still pay their bills, even with a crumbling job market. I don't remember asking for a loan from China. Are they underwriting my car loan now? If so, they're not the ones I filled out the paperwork with. Neither I nor anyone I know ever borrowed money without intending on paying it back. That's a poor example and an unnessecary attack.

How is your individual example relevant to an entire country? It's not.

Pump your brakes right there, period. How many of your friends died in New York? I'm not going to get into the debate over whether or not we belong in Afghanastan, that's not what this thread is about. But don't, DON'T, think that we'll never win.

Playing an emotional card like that is pathetic. If you wish to know how New York, other terrorist attacks and the wars have affected me personally feel free to PM me and I will tell you, it is not something I will discuss in a discussion like this.

The people of the United States did not ask for loans or handouts from any foreign government. We didn't, it's just that simple. If any individual is 'enslaved by debt' it is because they no longer have a job BECAUSE OF FREE TRADE, and are now having a terrible, terrible time making ends meet.

No your government did and I believe they were voted in by the people of the U.S?

If China were actually IMPORTING anything American made, in a comparable amount to what they're exporting, we wouldn't have to worry about loans or borrowing money, as we would have what Americans want most, JOBS!

That is not how things work... You may as well wish for a big fairy to come and wave her magic wand and give everyone jobs.

 

[Sas]

I have already conceded that free trade is a net positive. The benefits accrue to those with capital. Would the United States be better off? Yes, but American workers would be worse off. And that is assuming that what has happened over the last thirty years, say, is in fact free trade. Americans still cannot sell KFC in Bangalore, they still cannot get paid for their intellectual property, often, and when they sell Boeings to China the buyers are not profit-maximizing corporations competing with each other-- so they have to agree to turn over technology to the Chinese government, who orchestrates the trade. So decades of hard-won advantages have been squandered in a short-term push for free trade, when the other party wasn't free-trading at all.

Some American workers would be worse off but I don't believe the majority would be. What is the alternative?

You said we should have been innovating--I gave examples of innovative businesses developed in the United States. The problem with innovating is that a technological edge is difficult to achieve, and is quickly squandered in outsourcing deals. If American capitalists were a little bit more patriotic and a little less greedy--like the Chinese, who are willing to orchestrate their economy to achieve long-term goals--then the United States would be better off.

I agree that it is about thinking long term, as I have mentioned before, and the U.S. has not done so.

 

[jswantek]

So what bothers you, the fact that it's not made in the US or the fact that it's cheaply made? If it's the latter then simply buy a better cap.

Both, actually. And there aren't any 'better' ones made, just more expensive ones with name-brand tags.

They would not be failing if they had been more innovative and adapting to change. Apples wouldn't fall from the tree were it not for gravity yet there is gravity.

Um, yes, we were being innovative and adapting to change, with the exception of the auto industry. Yet, I still have no job.

It's not sustainable as you are seeing and that is the problem. Wishing that global trade would go away isn't a solution or an option.

Acutally, if ending free trade means the return of jobs to America, then I see it as a wonderful option. Can it be brought to an end? Not easily. Can our place in it be reduced in order to preserve our way of life. Yes, actually, it can. But, that would mean calling it 'FAIR' trade and not 'free' trade.

Anyone working for any larger, global company and the local businesses where they spend their money are benefiting.

Anyone buying a Japanese car is getting an extra $2,000 left in their pocket.

What areas of the US are benefiting from trade protectionism?

Hm, all the larger, global companies that were around here moved their manufacturing facilities to Asia, so I'd have to say I really don't know anyone working for them, and I do know a lot of people. These theoretical people who DO work for said companies aren't shopping at local businesses, they're going to wal-mart, lowe's and costco. The local business owner was one of the first things to fall victim to free trade. Wait a minute, maybe if they would spend an extra $2 and keep the local business going instead of buying cut-rate, bulk-discount garbage at the big box stores, our economy would be in better shape. I wonder...

Anyone buying a Japanese car may have $2,000 in their pocket now, but when it needs parts or repairs, they're going to be paying a lot more for them in the long run.

What areas of the United States are benefitting from free trade? I'm unaware of any place that actually IS 'protected'.

When you live in Detroit or Pennsylvania you may not be able to see very far because of the poor job protectionism has done for your economies.

Again, are we ACTUALLY being 'protected' from free trade? Doesn't seem like it to me. If things are better in Washington State, and there's a massive economic recovery going on, please let me know, I'm looking for a job.

 

[gcbryan]

This is a discussion board. Discussion often broadens the OP.

If someone really wants to know whether a product is made in the US it is actually hard to do. Do you care if the company is American, the product is 100% made in the US or what?

The desire to buy America shows a certain lack of knowledge and therefore the longish thread.

Why does someone care if a product is made 3,000 miles away in Alaska rather than Ireland?

What if we really buy local so everything we buy should be from our state. When you look at it that why you see how comparative advantage got it's start.

Buy your oranges from Florida if you live in NY and if you live in Florida buy your steel or whatever from NY. If you pay in Oranges (where you have the comparative advantage) if will cost you less than if you try to build small steel mills locally.

NY will pay less in steel for their oranges than if they have to build greenhouses to grow them in.

If you want a T-shirt buy it from a country where anyone in that country has the skill to produce it and where the economic level is low. If you live in Honduras grow bannanas and get your custom PC chips from California, etc.

 

[vladimir]

Another fine example of a thread careening off topic. Maybe we could ask the manufacturers if their gear is made in America or not. Maybe one of the staffers could help us with that by allowing us a message in every individual manufacturer's forum without having to manually enter all the messages. I am not sure that is possible, but it is worth a shot. That would definitively answer the OP's question without a nine hour debate about macro-economics.

Nothing in this discussion has prevented people from typing the names of American scuba equipment manufacturers. The sad fact is that there aren't many, so that topic was pretty much exhausted after the first few answers that directly addressed the original question.