anyone have one for sale or laying around collecting dust......
lQQking for bp/w setup
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Contact Scott Koplin at info@selchie.com or just head to http://www.covci.com/wings.htm and order one.
cyklon_300
Contributor
OP
something like peter let me use i know it was for doubles but says singles also. i think it was the treck. but anything will do i will change anything i need to get the job done with the equimpment i get... I just want a bp/w and plus i am going to set up a set of my al80's and use them for doubles i have five so i can just leave two for that
I think that its best to have one wing for singles and one wing for doubles. You can use the trek wing for both, but its not the best set up in the world for a single tank (I also prefer my wings without bungee, that why I removed them from my trek wing I use for my doubles).
I know you are wanting to do cavern and intro to cave at some point, but both of these courses are done in a single tank usually and I don't know for what type diving you plan on using the double al80's. Double 80's are not the tanks of choice for the caverns and caves here in Florida. Also for overhead diving you will need DIN valves and regs, so that is something else for you to think about when you get to that point in your diving.
So with all that in mind I think you should go for a single tank wing such as the Halvyon pioneer or eclipse or the Oxycheg single tank wing. Probably an Al bp will be good for you, cuz when you do go to doubles you don't want to be overweighted.
You can check at www.cavediver.net they have a gear sectin for sale section there. I'll keep my eye out for anything I think you can use and send the info your way.
I know you are wanting to do cavern and intro to cave at some point, but both of these courses are done in a single tank usually and I don't know for what type diving you plan on using the double al80's. Double 80's are not the tanks of choice for the caverns and caves here in Florida. Also for overhead diving you will need DIN valves and regs, so that is something else for you to think about when you get to that point in your diving.
So with all that in mind I think you should go for a single tank wing such as the Halvyon pioneer or eclipse or the Oxycheg single tank wing. Probably an Al bp will be good for you, cuz when you do go to doubles you don't want to be overweighted.
You can check at www.cavediver.net they have a gear sectin for sale section there. I'll keep my eye out for anything I think you can use and send the info your way.
OP
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm welllllllllll anyways
my bp/w will be my primary doubles setup i have a black diamond for my single tank and i read on one of these post that their are a couple guys diving al80's doubles with the black diamond but after awhile the back plate is starting to rip. Also I have been reading over in the tank valve and something else thread about diving al80's and the cave and caveren and it comes down to prefrence some like the steel weighting them down and some like the bouyant of al80's when they are running low on gas wich means anyways you should be on your way out or up from whatever kind of diving your doing. I am sure one has an advantage over the other being more gas more ditchable weight but with what i have weather i am in a overhead at 190' or in open water at 190 my gear i dive with now works just fine and all my valves work perfect. I own 5 al80's and no hp or lp steel so have no use for din yet. Just want me a back plate and wing. i hope that does not mean i need all the latest and greatest dir gear just to have a bp/w... And I personally did not have any problems diving the trek on a sta. maybe some do have certain problems with certain gear and some people over come and adapt. When I get mine I will put some split shot on my cord to my dump so it will float down a little more like it does with doubles. If i am in that big of a hurry to dump my air in an emergancy then i will use my knife and cut my wing. But other than my knob floating a little (no more than my black diamond) it was a nice little dive..... thanks for all the help and advice from everyone
my bp/w will be my primary doubles setup i have a black diamond for my single tank and i read on one of these post that their are a couple guys diving al80's doubles with the black diamond but after awhile the back plate is starting to rip. Also I have been reading over in the tank valve and something else thread about diving al80's and the cave and caveren and it comes down to prefrence some like the steel weighting them down and some like the bouyant of al80's when they are running low on gas wich means anyways you should be on your way out or up from whatever kind of diving your doing. I am sure one has an advantage over the other being more gas more ditchable weight but with what i have weather i am in a overhead at 190' or in open water at 190 my gear i dive with now works just fine and all my valves work perfect. I own 5 al80's and no hp or lp steel so have no use for din yet. Just want me a back plate and wing. i hope that does not mean i need all the latest and greatest dir gear just to have a bp/w... And I personally did not have any problems diving the trek on a sta. maybe some do have certain problems with certain gear and some people over come and adapt. When I get mine I will put some split shot on my cord to my dump so it will float down a little more like it does with doubles. If i am in that big of a hurry to dump my air in an emergancy then i will use my knife and cut my wing. But other than my knob floating a little (no more than my black diamond) it was a nice little dive..... thanks for all the help and advice from everyone
sorry for high-jacking your thread here, but since I already kinda have........
If you intend on using the doubles for cavern or intro to cave (and you will probably have to get the instructors persmission to dive doubles for those courses) I do believe that you will need DIN valves and regs for the tanks. Its not an issue of hp or lp steel tanks having DIN valves, its that when your valves make contact with the hard limestone ceiling of the cavern or cave it can knock the first stage off the valve. A DIN valve is a much more secure connection. You'll learn that when you do the training.
You mentioned "some like the bouyant of al80's when they are running low on gas wich means anyways you should be on your way out or up from whatever kind of diving your doing", actually you will learn the rule of 1/3's for cavern and the 1/6's for intro when you do your training.
And also I never mentioned anything about DIR in my post...why are you?
If you intend on using the doubles for cavern or intro to cave (and you will probably have to get the instructors persmission to dive doubles for those courses) I do believe that you will need DIN valves and regs for the tanks. Its not an issue of hp or lp steel tanks having DIN valves, its that when your valves make contact with the hard limestone ceiling of the cavern or cave it can knock the first stage off the valve. A DIN valve is a much more secure connection. You'll learn that when you do the training.
You mentioned "some like the bouyant of al80's when they are running low on gas wich means anyways you should be on your way out or up from whatever kind of diving your doing", actually you will learn the rule of 1/3's for cavern and the 1/6's for intro when you do your training.
And also I never mentioned anything about DIR in my post...why are you?
OP
Junior Member
Registered: Sep 2002
Dallas, TX
Posts: 94
why not doubles on AL?
I've never seen nor heard of doubles using aluminum, my guess is they would be too bouant?
what about neutraly bouant AL80's?
What is the cheapest (cheap, but safe) way to get onto doubles?
edit: just saw a post talking about double al80's, would you need less lift on the BC to handle something like that since al is bouant?
Last edited by FIXXERVI6 on 07-09-2003 at 06:17 PM
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07-09-2003 06:09 PM
JohnF Akumal 07-09-2003 06:16 PM
JohnF
Member
Registered: Feb 2001
Stratford, Ontario
Posts: 280
Akumal
Double al80's are popular with the cave divers in the Akumal area. I suppose because cavers plan to end their dives with a fair amount of gas left in the tanks, the buoyancy issue is moot.
JohnF
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07-09-2003 06:16 PM
DA Aquamaster Al tanks displace more water due to a thicker... 07-09-2003 07:27 PM
DA Aquamaster
Senior Member
Registered: Jun 2003
South Dakota
Posts: 723
Al tanks displace more water due to a thicker...
Al tanks displace more water due to a thicker overall wall thickness than a steel tank and this combined with similar weights means the Al tanks are more bouyant than comparable steel tanks. There is however a Super 80 available that offers better bouyancy characteristics.
Double 80's can actually be a bit more stable to dive as the tanks are above your center of gravity and the AL tanks are a bit more bouyant and/or less negative than a steel tank. With a properly sized wing however it really is not an issue one way or the other.
Steel tanks can be excessively negative in some cases and it is not a bad idea to use the more neutrally bouyant AL tanks for stage tanks.
In the end it comes down to your indiviual diving and weight requirements. You need to have enough weight to stay down with a pair of nearly empty AL doubles and if the weight required to achieve that is not excessive, it really is not a problem.
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07-09-2003 07:27 PM
Diver Lori Yup...we used AL80's in Akumal. Usually a V-... 07-09-2003 07:44 PM
Diver Lori
Member
Registered: Jul 2002
oHIo
Posts: 270
Yup...we used AL80's in Akumal. Usually a V-...
Yup...we used AL80's in Akumal. Usually a V-weight or two in between the tanks takes care of any buoyant issues. AL80's due to their buoyancy characteristics make them ideal for wetsuit diving.....no need for redundant floatation. Plus the dives are long, but many times very shallow.....and the AL80's fit perfectly.
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07-09-2003 07:44 PM
Ron Brandt Using Doubles 07-13-2003 09:02 PM
Ron Brandt
Member
Registered: Aug 2001
Western Canada
Posts: 381
Using Doubles
Al 80's for wetsuit.
Steel 95's or 103's for drysuit.
Ron
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07-13-2003 09:02 PM
ElectricZombie I use double AL 80s since I dive a wetsuit.... 07-13-2003 09:24 PM
ElectricZombie
Senior Member
Registered: Mar 2002
Greenville, NC
Posts: 1004
I use double AL 80s since I dive a wetsuit....
I use double AL 80s since I dive a wetsuit. I'll pick up a set of 104s when I get a drysuit.
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Johnathan Mitchell
NAUI Instructor
"I'm going to go outside now and sacrifice a jacket BC to the DIR God."
"Do it right the first time."
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07-13-2003 09:24 PM
Genesis PST E-series... 07-13-2003 10:25 PM
Genesis
Senior Member
Registered: Aug 2002
Destin
Posts: 2849
PST E-series...
steels are a good compromise.
More gas availability, and only SLIGHTLY negative (-1.5 or so) empty.
This means they're quite good with a wetsuit; just about the only rig you'd have trouble with is if you wanted to dive a bathing suit (no exposure protection at all.)
With my steel BP + STA + HP100 (or 120) I need 2lbs of lead on my belt. That's a very nice, low-impact weight belt! If I add a 3 mil hooded vest I add another 4lbs or so to the belt, and I'm cool in that configuration as well.
Diving dry I require 15lbs in my "usual" config (changes somewhat depending on the undergarmets, but that's pretty typical.)
The AL tank requires me to add 4-5lbs to the above weights (rather than diving the HP steel)
An LP tank would be impossibly heavy in a light (3 mil) wetsuit and only marginally "ok" with the hooded vest. It would, however, require less external weight in the drysuit config.
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07-13-2003 10:25 PM
DA Aquamaster A standard 2250 psi steel 72 is also a viable... 07-14-2003 01:23 AM
DA Aquamaster
Senior Member
Registered: Jun 2003
South Dakota
Posts: 723
A standard 2250 psi steel 72 is also a viable...
A standard 2250 psi steel 72 is also a viable alternative to an AL 80 for doubles. They are only a couple pounds more negative and much more bouyant than most other larger capacity LP steel tanks and more bouyant than the faber streel 71.4.
A run of the mill steel 72 has all the advantagves of steel, plus they are normally very affordable on the used market.
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07-14-2003 01:23 AM
Padipro AL 90's 07-14-2003 03:14 AM
Padipro
Member
Registered: May 2002
South Florida
Posts: 499
AL 90's
Aluminum doubles are popular here in South Florida for the same reasons mentiond earlier. With the warm water here only a light wetsuit is required to stay warm. The added weight of steel tanks is not needed. I use double Catlina AL 90's. Even with a 5mil semi dry in the winter and an AL backplate I'm so negitive that I have to add air to slow my decent. If I used steels I don't think I could get off the bottom.
Scott
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07-14-2003 03:14 AM
FIXXERVI6 well, I think I've picked out my BC, fine for... 08-10-2003 12:28 AM
FIXXERVI6
Junior Member
Registered: Sep 2002
Dallas, TX
Posts: 94
well, I think I've picked out my BC, fine for...
well, I think I've picked out my BC, fine for singles, and doubles.
Now my question is If I were to do double 80's, do I need double everything!?
like, two pressure gauges, two first stages, two primary second stages!??
Reason I ask is because the manifold has the isolator valve, if you crank it, you have to switch to the other side, witch means, two of everything, including pressure gauges, or am I off base?
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08-10-2003 12:28 AM
jonnythan
Registered: Sep 2002
Dallas, TX
Posts: 94
why not doubles on AL?
I've never seen nor heard of doubles using aluminum, my guess is they would be too bouant?
what about neutraly bouant AL80's?
What is the cheapest (cheap, but safe) way to get onto doubles?
edit: just saw a post talking about double al80's, would you need less lift on the BC to handle something like that since al is bouant?
Last edited by FIXXERVI6 on 07-09-2003 at 06:17 PM
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07-09-2003 06:09 PM
JohnF Akumal 07-09-2003 06:16 PM
JohnF
Member
Registered: Feb 2001
Stratford, Ontario
Posts: 280
Akumal
Double al80's are popular with the cave divers in the Akumal area. I suppose because cavers plan to end their dives with a fair amount of gas left in the tanks, the buoyancy issue is moot.
JohnF
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07-09-2003 06:16 PM
DA Aquamaster Al tanks displace more water due to a thicker... 07-09-2003 07:27 PM
DA Aquamaster
Senior Member
Registered: Jun 2003
South Dakota
Posts: 723
Al tanks displace more water due to a thicker...
Al tanks displace more water due to a thicker overall wall thickness than a steel tank and this combined with similar weights means the Al tanks are more bouyant than comparable steel tanks. There is however a Super 80 available that offers better bouyancy characteristics.
Double 80's can actually be a bit more stable to dive as the tanks are above your center of gravity and the AL tanks are a bit more bouyant and/or less negative than a steel tank. With a properly sized wing however it really is not an issue one way or the other.
Steel tanks can be excessively negative in some cases and it is not a bad idea to use the more neutrally bouyant AL tanks for stage tanks.
In the end it comes down to your indiviual diving and weight requirements. You need to have enough weight to stay down with a pair of nearly empty AL doubles and if the weight required to achieve that is not excessive, it really is not a problem.
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07-09-2003 07:27 PM
Diver Lori Yup...we used AL80's in Akumal. Usually a V-... 07-09-2003 07:44 PM
Diver Lori
Member
Registered: Jul 2002
oHIo
Posts: 270
Yup...we used AL80's in Akumal. Usually a V-...
Yup...we used AL80's in Akumal. Usually a V-weight or two in between the tanks takes care of any buoyant issues. AL80's due to their buoyancy characteristics make them ideal for wetsuit diving.....no need for redundant floatation. Plus the dives are long, but many times very shallow.....and the AL80's fit perfectly.
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07-09-2003 07:44 PM
Ron Brandt Using Doubles 07-13-2003 09:02 PM
Ron Brandt
Member
Registered: Aug 2001
Western Canada
Posts: 381
Using Doubles
Al 80's for wetsuit.
Steel 95's or 103's for drysuit.
Ron
__________________
Ronnie - What a life ! Life's Short,Dive Hard.
Adventure Sports
Ron Brandt Adventure Tours
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07-13-2003 09:02 PM
ElectricZombie I use double AL 80s since I dive a wetsuit.... 07-13-2003 09:24 PM
ElectricZombie
Senior Member
Registered: Mar 2002
Greenville, NC
Posts: 1004
I use double AL 80s since I dive a wetsuit....
I use double AL 80s since I dive a wetsuit. I'll pick up a set of 104s when I get a drysuit.
__________________
Johnathan Mitchell
NAUI Instructor
"I'm going to go outside now and sacrifice a jacket BC to the DIR God."
"Do it right the first time."
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07-13-2003 09:24 PM
Genesis PST E-series... 07-13-2003 10:25 PM
Genesis
Senior Member
Registered: Aug 2002
Destin
Posts: 2849
PST E-series...
steels are a good compromise.
More gas availability, and only SLIGHTLY negative (-1.5 or so) empty.
This means they're quite good with a wetsuit; just about the only rig you'd have trouble with is if you wanted to dive a bathing suit (no exposure protection at all.)
With my steel BP + STA + HP100 (or 120) I need 2lbs of lead on my belt. That's a very nice, low-impact weight belt! If I add a 3 mil hooded vest I add another 4lbs or so to the belt, and I'm cool in that configuration as well.
Diving dry I require 15lbs in my "usual" config (changes somewhat depending on the undergarmets, but that's pretty typical.)
The AL tank requires me to add 4-5lbs to the above weights (rather than diving the HP steel)
An LP tank would be impossibly heavy in a light (3 mil) wetsuit and only marginally "ok" with the hooded vest. It would, however, require less external weight in the drysuit config.
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Tank/bumper stickers available - http://diversunion.org/stickers.htm
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07-13-2003 10:25 PM
DA Aquamaster A standard 2250 psi steel 72 is also a viable... 07-14-2003 01:23 AM
DA Aquamaster
Senior Member
Registered: Jun 2003
South Dakota
Posts: 723
A standard 2250 psi steel 72 is also a viable...
A standard 2250 psi steel 72 is also a viable alternative to an AL 80 for doubles. They are only a couple pounds more negative and much more bouyant than most other larger capacity LP steel tanks and more bouyant than the faber streel 71.4.
A run of the mill steel 72 has all the advantagves of steel, plus they are normally very affordable on the used market.
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07-14-2003 01:23 AM
Padipro AL 90's 07-14-2003 03:14 AM
Padipro
Member
Registered: May 2002
South Florida
Posts: 499
AL 90's
Aluminum doubles are popular here in South Florida for the same reasons mentiond earlier. With the warm water here only a light wetsuit is required to stay warm. The added weight of steel tanks is not needed. I use double Catlina AL 90's. Even with a 5mil semi dry in the winter and an AL backplate I'm so negitive that I have to add air to slow my decent. If I used steels I don't think I could get off the bottom.
Scott
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Lobster don't stand a chance!!!
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07-14-2003 03:14 AM
FIXXERVI6 well, I think I've picked out my BC, fine for... 08-10-2003 12:28 AM
FIXXERVI6
Junior Member
Registered: Sep 2002
Dallas, TX
Posts: 94
well, I think I've picked out my BC, fine for...
well, I think I've picked out my BC, fine for singles, and doubles.
Now my question is If I were to do double 80's, do I need double everything!?
like, two pressure gauges, two first stages, two primary second stages!??
Reason I ask is because the manifold has the isolator valve, if you crank it, you have to switch to the other side, witch means, two of everything, including pressure gauges, or am I off base?
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08-10-2003 12:28 AM
jonnythan
FIXXERVI6 once bubbled... ... 08-10-2003 12:46 AM
jonnythan
Senior Member
Registered: Apr 2002
Troy, NY
Posts: 1595
FIXXERVI6 once bubbled... ...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FIXXERVI6 once bubbled...
well, I think I've picked out my BC, fine for singles, and doubles.
Now my question is If I were to do double 80's, do I need double everything!?
like, two pressure gauges, two first stages, two primary second stages!??
Reason I ask is because the manifold has the isolator valve, if you crank it, you have to switch to the other side, witch means, two of everything, including pressure gauges, or am I off base?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Before anyone answers this, let me say that assembling and diving some doubles based on some info from SB and a couple of pictures is a very bad idea. It looks like it would be very easy... get a couple of tanks, some bands, a manifold... put them together, toss on a couple of first stages, bolt to a bp and go diving. Get some instruction of some sort from someone who knows what they're doing.
That being said, you'd have two first stages but one of everything else. Off of one first stage you'd run your primary regulator and BC inflator hose, then off the other first stage you'd have your SPG, drysuit inflator hose (if you have one), and backup regulator. I think this is how it's normally done
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08-10-2003 12:46 AM
ElectricZombie You might want to do some more research bef... 08-10-2003 12:47 AM
ElectricZombie
Senior Member
Registered: Mar 2002
Greenville, NC
Posts: 1004
You might want to do some more research bef...
You might want to do some more research before buying anything, it sounds like you're not familiar with how doubles work.
With doubles you will need two 1st stages, two 2nd stages, one pressure gague and one inflator hose.
What BCs did you choose?
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Johnathan Mitchell
NAUI Instructor
"I'm going to go outside now and sacrifice a jacket BC to the DIR God."
"Do it right the first time."
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08-10-2003 12:47 AM
FIXXERVI6 I'm not familiar with doubles, thats why I am... 08-10-2003 01:18 AM
FIXXERVI6
Junior Member
Registered: Sep 2002
Dallas, TX
Posts: 94
I'm not familiar with doubles, thats why I am...
I'm not familiar with doubles, thats why I am asking
The zeagle ranger, the standard bladder is not overkill for my single neutral 80, but also a good BC to use on double neutral 80's when I get to that point.
Tried on on, liked the fit/features/price, and even if I never make it to doubles, still a good BC.
I plan on taking advanced nitrox and decompression diving classes before I make investments into manifolds and such, especially seeing how I dont' think there is a lot of good 2 tank deco dives in TX
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08-10-2003 01:18 AM
Don Burke aluminum doubles 08-11-2003 11:21 AM
Don Burke
Member
Registered: May 2003
Chesapeake, Virginia
Posts: 438
aluminum doubles
Aluminum 80s are really good for starting out with doubles since they work well with a wetsuit and you can dive them dry if need be. If you change your mind, you can sell them or break them down. AL 80s can always be used for something in diving and you can sell the bands and manifold.
I tried my AL 80s with a drysuit and immediately went looking for some small steel tanks. The amount of surface weight required with aluminum and a drysuit was more than I was willing to deal with. Your mileage may vary.
Basically, there are two problems you need to be able to deal with:
1. You jump in the water, snag something on the way in, and your BC inflator hose is ripped to shreds. How much weight do you need to ditch to stay on the surface?
2. You get problem 1 fixed and try the dive again. At the bottom, you immediately snag something and your BC inflator hose is ripped to shreds. How much weight do you need to ditch to get to the surface?
With my wetsuit and full 80s, the answer to #1 is about eight pounds due to the weight of the gas in the tanks minus a little extra bouyancy from the wetsuit at the surface.
The answer to #2 (assuming 100 feet) is about twenty pounds due to the weight of the gas in the tanks plus some missing bouyancy due to wetsuit compression at depth.
With AL80s and a steel backplate, I wear twenty-four pounds on a belt with my wetsuit. That gives me enough ditchable weight.
With my steel 72s and a steel backplate, I would only need about twelve pounds on a belt with the wetsuit. The smaller gas capacity makes the answer to #1 about seven pounds and the answer to #2 twenty-three pounds. If I switch to an aluminum backplate (or jacket BC for that matter), I'll end up with seventeen pounds on the belt, still not enough for my taste. I'd have to swim up at least three pounds, more if I take weight off the belt to allow for a dive light or tools.
Perhaps there are steel tank combinations that makes sense with a wetsuit. I haven't seen one.
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08-11-2003 11:21 AM
FIXXERVI6 as far as ditchable weight, that wouldn't be ... 08-11-2003 11:42 AM
FIXXERVI6
Junior Member
Registered: Sep 2002
Dallas, TX
Posts: 94
as far as ditchable weight, that wouldn't be ...
as far as ditchable weight, that wouldn't be very much with double neutrals.
No wet suit I wore 4lbs on my neutral 80, and in testing I can sink with no weight, and 900 psi in the tank, so I may tweak this back to 2lbs on my next dive.
doubles, I would assume I would wear no weight, or 2 to 4lbs with a 3 mil on, because of the low weight would considering standard 80's be better to have more ditchable weight?
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08-11-2003 11:42 AM
The time now is 08:41 PM.
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and then the rest of the thread......
that was a long post there Brandon, could have just supplied a link to the thread (http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31398&perpage=15&display=&pagenumber=1), but anyway....
I never said I don't like double AL80's, I do, I'm wanting to get a set myself for ow diving in the ocean. But did you notice that a couple of those folks said that cave divers in Akumal (that's in Mexico, not Florida, different caves over there) do use double Al80's, that's the preferred set up for over there, but genrerally in Florida caves diveers use steel tanks, but that's beside the point here, you should still use DIN valves and regs when diving overhead and not yoke. I have even heard of divers that spearfish using DIN regs cuz its a more secure connection when they are wrestling a fish out from under a coral ledge.
I never said I don't like double AL80's, I do, I'm wanting to get a set myself for ow diving in the ocean. But did you notice that a couple of those folks said that cave divers in Akumal (that's in Mexico, not Florida, different caves over there) do use double Al80's, that's the preferred set up for over there, but genrerally in Florida caves diveers use steel tanks, but that's beside the point here, you should still use DIN valves and regs when diving overhead and not yoke. I have even heard of divers that spearfish using DIN regs cuz its a more secure connection when they are wrestling a fish out from under a coral ledge.
