Looking for Advice for training progression.

[tbone1004]

No, that's not what I said. I said since he intends to go into cave diving, he should start learning the basics in some of the gear so he'll be comfortable and familiar with it.

Woudln't you agree that he'll need a Fundies Tech Pass if he were to go the GUE route? Can he get one in a single tank?

eh I'll have to disagree with you buddy. I think doing it in single tank is fine now. Focus on the hard stuff that NEEDs to be second nature, trim/buoyancy/propulsion. After that, then you go and learn the new equipment so you are always defaulting to good base technique. Who knows how long it will be until he gets into a cave or inside of a wreck, but if you give them the tools early on, then it's a lot less of a problem making the gear switch. To doubles is basically nothing, but I'd rather them look damned good in a single tank before trying to teach them a valve drill while they're flopping around.

 

[kensuf]

We're going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[stuartv]

What's wrong with taking ItT in single tank and then taking it again later, in doubles? If done with the same instructor, it seems like it would be a lot like taking Fundies in single tank and possibly getting a Rec pass, then coming back later to try for a Tech pass.

The skill level the OP described sounds like he is not yet the best candidate for learning doubles. But that doesn't seem like a reason, by itself, to say "don't take Intro to Tech yet."

 

[Schwob]

So about GUE Fundies:
I never took it and yet, I recommebd it as your next class.
Why?
Because:

- My regular agency classes with a rare exception were a joke. Did I learn something? Yes, I learn something every dive. Did I learn a lot, was I challenged, did I get a reality check, did I think the class was good and teally worthwhile? Not necessarily for many of them. As so many say, it may depend on the instructor. Well no matter what many say, that is hard to determine upfront. Q & A does not cut it in my opinion unless you interview an instructor who does not know what to say. The way I experienced most of my classes was that the focus is on getting through the class, passing the class (even divers who I would have thunk clearly shouldn't) being ready to buy more classes...
Your experince may vary. I hear and read done of those classes are excellent. Almost managed to secure one once for my wife but then that instructor had a temporary medical issue and we were back to more of the already experienced.
If you can make it work with an instructor that you are highly confident in because of others recomendation (maybe here) go gor it. Otherwise, I think it's a gamble whst quality class you get.

- Even so I never took Fundies (still may some day, sure hope my now 18 year old son considers it...) , I recommend it (if you can make the time... (my problem) because I gather this:
- Even if the instructor were not to be great paedagogically (some such spelling, he/she is going to be a good diver and will check and inform you on your deliverables (your performance) and give solid pointers and feedback how to get there (sounds simple, seen it done miserably many times, i.e. what's the point in explaining the same thing over and over into a deer in the headlighr look student's face and not bother with a video cam or mirror that will make it blatantly obvious). So, you may not like the feedback but it will make you see the flaws in your ways and give you what you need to correct it.
- If you try hard and often enough do do something to a certain standard and still fail to achieve that, I understand a GUE instructor will not pass you. I gave certainly seen otherwise elsewhere.
This "honest" and not selling more classes (well, maybe more class time?) is quite valuable I think.

That's it, those are the simple reasons I'd put forth.

 

[Lorenzoid]

No, that's not what I said. I said since he intends to go into cave diving, he should start learning the basics in some of the gear so he'll be comfortable and familiar with it.

Woudln't you agree that he'll need a Fundies Tech Pass if he were to go the GUE route? Can he get one in a single tank?

Yes, he would need a tech pass in Fundies as a prerequisite for taking Cave 1, and that of course would require being in the full tech gear configuration, not a single tank. But I would suggest he first take Fundies in the rec gear configuration that he is already familiar with and shoot for a rec pass, then later go back to his instructor after he has been working at a higher level for a while and get the tech pass. I think he would get more out of Fundies if he were not having to struggle with new gear at the same time. Since much of Fundies carries over from rec to tech--it's designed that way--why not divide what has to be learned into smaller chunks? And delaying Fundies to acquire and get familiar with tech gear would just increase the likelihood of ingraining bad habits, as you and Tom pointed out.

I am admittedly biased toward this two-step route because it's what I did (and I'm still working on getting to tech pass level). I had a hard enough time with learning to stay still and stable while doing things like S-drills and deploying an SMB in the wetsuit and single tank configuration that at the time I had around 200 dives of experience with. I can't imagine having taken Fundies the first time in doubles, a drysuit, with a canister light, etc. When I went back to finish up Fundies (for the rec pass), another student was doing just that, and it looked like he was having a heck of a difficult time. Of course, it's possible I was the poster boy for having ingrained bad habits.

 

[Doppler]

The progression from a basic sport diver to a "technical diver" has muddied a little lately. Once it was simply a question of getting your arse to someplace with caves and starting with a cavern course. For most of us, that cavern class -- an innocent enough choice at the time -- led to a deep love of cave diving with its attendant complications (all good but kiss your retirement funds goodbye.

Anyhow, the OP SHOULD get a few more dives, and sit down with a good instructor and work out a medium-term schedule.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.

 

[taimen]

Having done fundies early with doubles and drysuit I definitely recommend that approach.

 

[Alexandros]

Second what taimen said. I'd say go with doubles and drysuit from the beginning. Don't overthink if you'll get a rec or tec pass. Just enjoy the class

 

[KevinNM]

No, that's not what I said. I said since he intends to go into cave diving, he should start learning the basics in some of the gear so he'll be comfortable and familiar with it.

Woudln't you agree that he'll need a Fundies Tech Pass if he were to go the GUE route? Can he get one in a single tank?

You can't. But you know, he probably can't get a rec pass in doubles either trying the first time. I found it MUCH harder to do the required skills in a dry suit and doubles than in a wet suit and singles. I had a rec pass in a wet suit and singles. Everyone in my class using doubles got a provisional, including the guy with full cave. And we all deserved it. Though our weak points were different we all had stuff that we could not do to even rec standard. The skills are really hard if you haven't done them while trying to maintain trim and depth using all the gear.

 

[taimen]

On my fundies class, all three of us had (significantly) less than 100 dives before the course and none of us got provisional. YMMV, but we probably agree that GUE standards are probably more universal around the world than any other agency.
If cave and tech or whatever is your goal, just switch into that configuration AND get instruction from a cave/tech instructor immediately. After a course like GUE Fundamentals you know what and how you have to practice. And it also sets the bar so you have an idea what is the required minimum skill level.