LONG post about a dispute with my LDS
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Chris-- People over 14 are allowed on this board; so are people under 14. All that's asked is they remain cordial and respectful.
Basic rule: When YOU get a little older, perhaps you will learn some things:
1. Some things you can change; some things you can't. The trick is identifying between the two.
2. Some hills aren't worth dying on.
3. At some point, the adventure is no longer cost effective. One has to wonder why you are holding onto this issue so tightly and spending so much time on it.
4. The solution to your issue was put up front early...Stop payment on the card and negotiate from strength.
5. Your responses were instructional as to your nature, and your response to Alikat pretty much sums it up. You asked for input and opinion, but whenever anyone found fault with your position, you attacked them. Now Alikat makes a pretty clear point, and you resort to an ad hominem attack and dismiss her.
You might be a nice guy, I'm sure your wife loves you. But your responses and attack on Alikat really tell the story.
You're a nightmare of a customer.
BTW--I'm well over 14, and I have enough respect for you as a human being to never suggest you simply STFU.
Let it go and get on with your life.
Cheers.
JR
Basic rule: When YOU get a little older, perhaps you will learn some things:
1. Some things you can change; some things you can't. The trick is identifying between the two.
2. Some hills aren't worth dying on.
3. At some point, the adventure is no longer cost effective. One has to wonder why you are holding onto this issue so tightly and spending so much time on it.
4. The solution to your issue was put up front early...Stop payment on the card and negotiate from strength.
5. Your responses were instructional as to your nature, and your response to Alikat pretty much sums it up. You asked for input and opinion, but whenever anyone found fault with your position, you attacked them. Now Alikat makes a pretty clear point, and you resort to an ad hominem attack and dismiss her.
You might be a nice guy, I'm sure your wife loves you. But your responses and attack on Alikat really tell the story.
You're a nightmare of a customer.
BTW--I'm well over 14, and I have enough respect for you as a human being to never suggest you simply STFU.
Let it go and get on with your life.
Cheers.
JR
Thanks for letting me know that the solution to my problem was put up front early. I guess I missed that.
Perhaps you missed the fact that no single, universal solution has been presented nor agreed upon by all who've cared to post to this thread.
A quarter of you still think that I'm not owed anything.
Well, for those of you who care, here's why I didn't simply take care of this by having my credit card company deal with this:
-I believe that the employee is the person most to blame for all of this mess. Hurting the shop will not harm him, it will harm the owner.
-From what I can tell, the owner is a fairly nice guy - he doesn't seem particularly smart, nor involved enough in his own business, but he does seem nice. He's taking everything his employee tells him as being 100% true - anyone who did that would think that I'm the real 'nightmare customer' some of you make me out to be.
-Darn near all of you whine and moan about what a low profit business running a dive shop is. While I don't feel any sympathy for anyone who chooses to run a business that has the problems of profitability that you all say LDS's have, I am MORE THAN HAPPY to pitch in a little and help out if I can - for example, I charged the classes to my Visa, rather than my preferred American Express card because I know that Visa charges lower fees. Lower fees = higher profit for the dive shop (small though they may be), and so it was fine with me. I bought ALL of my equipment from the LDS, and I bought what he reccomended, regardless of the cost - that's why I have the super snazzy fins instead of the regular ol' ones. (and yes, they're gray, AND they look cool!
)
-Similarly, the LDS owner, in one of his brief moments of clarity, explained to me that it's very expensive for the shop to fight a disputed charge. I didn't want it to come to that UNLESS THERE WAS NO OTHER OPTION.
I'd tell those of you who don't appreciate that where to go, but I've been chastised once for that.
I would appreciate it, however, if anyone could explain to me how something like [EDIT: A crass acronym for shut the -expletive deleted-up /EDIT] is in any way worse than someone telling me to "Sh...or get off the pot!!!"
Oh, one more thing Mr. Jar, pointing out Alikat's obvious overly emotional/not-quite-logical assessment of the situation is NOT an ad hominem attack. His/Her maturity is directly linked with his/her ability to respond logically, therefore the response was merited.
It WAS mean, and that may have been out of line, however, as previously stated, I don't think it was one bit worse than what s/he said to me.
If you can honestly say that you think Alikat's comments (or yours for that matter) were in any way 'cordial and respectful' well then, let's just say I have a lot more concern about how you treat your wife/girlfriend/boyfriend/dog than you imply you have with how I treat mine.
Hopefully this isn't too over the line:ut:
Finally, while this whole situation is a real pain, it's only a pain for the relatively few moments each day that I have to deal with it.
I spend the time I spend posting here because I've been curious to understand this situation better - I want to know how unusual it is, and I'm curious what other people's opinions are - that however IN NO WAY means that I have to like crudely expressed opinions, and I will continue to express my disdain for those who utter them, especially when they're dead wrong.
Perhaps you missed the fact that no single, universal solution has been presented nor agreed upon by all who've cared to post to this thread.
A quarter of you still think that I'm not owed anything.
Well, for those of you who care, here's why I didn't simply take care of this by having my credit card company deal with this:
-I believe that the employee is the person most to blame for all of this mess. Hurting the shop will not harm him, it will harm the owner.
-From what I can tell, the owner is a fairly nice guy - he doesn't seem particularly smart, nor involved enough in his own business, but he does seem nice. He's taking everything his employee tells him as being 100% true - anyone who did that would think that I'm the real 'nightmare customer' some of you make me out to be.
-Darn near all of you whine and moan about what a low profit business running a dive shop is. While I don't feel any sympathy for anyone who chooses to run a business that has the problems of profitability that you all say LDS's have, I am MORE THAN HAPPY to pitch in a little and help out if I can - for example, I charged the classes to my Visa, rather than my preferred American Express card because I know that Visa charges lower fees. Lower fees = higher profit for the dive shop (small though they may be), and so it was fine with me. I bought ALL of my equipment from the LDS, and I bought what he reccomended, regardless of the cost - that's why I have the super snazzy fins instead of the regular ol' ones. (and yes, they're gray, AND they look cool!
)-Similarly, the LDS owner, in one of his brief moments of clarity, explained to me that it's very expensive for the shop to fight a disputed charge. I didn't want it to come to that UNLESS THERE WAS NO OTHER OPTION.
I'd tell those of you who don't appreciate that where to go, but I've been chastised once for that.
I would appreciate it, however, if anyone could explain to me how something like [EDIT: A crass acronym for shut the -expletive deleted-up /EDIT] is in any way worse than someone telling me to "Sh...or get off the pot!!!"
Oh, one more thing Mr. Jar, pointing out Alikat's obvious overly emotional/not-quite-logical assessment of the situation is NOT an ad hominem attack. His/Her maturity is directly linked with his/her ability to respond logically, therefore the response was merited.
It WAS mean, and that may have been out of line, however, as previously stated, I don't think it was one bit worse than what s/he said to me.
If you can honestly say that you think Alikat's comments (or yours for that matter) were in any way 'cordial and respectful' well then, let's just say I have a lot more concern about how you treat your wife/girlfriend/boyfriend/dog than you imply you have with how I treat mine.
Hopefully this isn't too over the line:
ut: Finally, while this whole situation is a real pain, it's only a pain for the relatively few moments each day that I have to deal with it.
I spend the time I spend posting here because I've been curious to understand this situation better - I want to know how unusual it is, and I'm curious what other people's opinions are - that however IN NO WAY means that I have to like crudely expressed opinions, and I will continue to express my disdain for those who utter them, especially when they're dead wrong.
Kayla
Contributor
after reading all of this for a little over 2 hours, I have to say that I am totally on your side here. sure there are a few things you could have done differently, but in the long run, this guy just seems like a really big jerk. i hope things work out for you, and keep us posted on what happens!
Kayla
Kayla
kwesler
Contributor
a general observation...
There is a difference between Right, Justice and Law. I am sitting here with my stomach churning over an obnoxious person who rented my theatre, agreed to all the charges, and is now refusing to pay them.
What is Right is for him to admit he is wrong and pay the charges-that will not happen. If he was logical and clear headed enough to do that, I would not be dealing with this issue. I have never experienced someone suddenly seeing the light and stepping up and doing what is right-see posts above!
What is Just would be that a simple, inexpensive system of evaluating both of our positions and judging them existed and the theatre would be paid forthwith.
The Law makes is thus-I will forget about the several thousand dollars this man owes us, and bear the burden of it, because it would cost considerably more to recover it. Anyone with a half decent knowledge of our legal system can create a lot of pain for the righteous.
Chris-My take on the credit card comments is that you were Right and Just in your approach-it just makes your life considerably more difficult because of the Law. I guess some of us wonder whether the issue should have been"let go". Life is just too short to waste time on a**h**e like the LDS.
In the end, my experience at least is that you will not get the chance to feel satisfied with a Just solution-it just happens WAY too rarely.
As a personal BTW-I try to take that energy and do something good-volunteer for a charity or some such, whenever some jerk takes advatnage of me.
Ken
There is a difference between Right, Justice and Law. I am sitting here with my stomach churning over an obnoxious person who rented my theatre, agreed to all the charges, and is now refusing to pay them.
What is Right is for him to admit he is wrong and pay the charges-that will not happen. If he was logical and clear headed enough to do that, I would not be dealing with this issue. I have never experienced someone suddenly seeing the light and stepping up and doing what is right-see posts above!
What is Just would be that a simple, inexpensive system of evaluating both of our positions and judging them existed and the theatre would be paid forthwith.
The Law makes is thus-I will forget about the several thousand dollars this man owes us, and bear the burden of it, because it would cost considerably more to recover it. Anyone with a half decent knowledge of our legal system can create a lot of pain for the righteous.
Chris-My take on the credit card comments is that you were Right and Just in your approach-it just makes your life considerably more difficult because of the Law. I guess some of us wonder whether the issue should have been"let go". Life is just too short to waste time on a**h**e like the LDS.
In the end, my experience at least is that you will not get the chance to feel satisfied with a Just solution-it just happens WAY too rarely.
As a personal BTW-I try to take that energy and do something good-volunteer for a charity or some such, whenever some jerk takes advatnage of me.
Ken
As I posted before in another post, the dive shop is clearly in the wrong. However for some reason you are bending over backwards to "help" out the owner. You posted the following:
"-I believe that the employee is the person most to blame for all of this mess. Hurting the shop will not harm him, it will harm the owner."
The owner is the person most to blame. He hired the employee, he is ultimately responsible. The employee shares little to no blame.
"-From what I can tell, the owner is a fairly nice guy - he doesn't seem particularly smart, nor involved enough in his own business, but he does seem nice. He's taking everything his employee tells him as being 100% true - anyone who did that would think that I'm the real 'nightmare customer' some of you make me out to be."
The #1 most important trait as a manager and leader is selecting the right people for any given job. If the employee is incompetent then it is 100% the owners fault. The owner either needs to properly train the employee or fire him.
"...While I don't feel any sympathy for anyone who chooses to run a business that has the problems of profitability that you all say LDS's have, I am MORE THAN HAPPY to pitch in a little and help out if I can"
You should only do this if it doesn't cost you anything. I will always pay with a visa because of the ability to dispute. If the guy wants me to pay with cash, he is going to have to come up with a bargain that offsets giving up my visa "insurance". This is a business transaction, you are pitching in by buying his service. If you give a concession in a business transaction you must get something in return. If you can't handle this, don't buy from little shops that ask you to do these things.
"I bought ALL of my equipment from the LDS, and I bought what he reccomended, regardless of the cost - that's why I have the super snazzy fins instead of the regular ol' ones. (and yes, they're gray, AND they look cool! )"
You should be able to get exactly what you want without feeling like you have to do them a favor to get it. The favor you are doing them is spending money at his store.
"-Similarly, the LDS owner, in one of his brief moments of clarity, explained to me that it's very expensive for the shop to fight a disputed charge. I didn't want it to come to that UNLESS THERE WAS NO OTHER OPTION."
There are no other options. No offense, but you are a wishful thinker. It sounds like you expend way too much effort trying to make people like you. It was clear a long time ago that the quality of character of everyone at the dive shop was very low. How many lies do they have to tell you before you realize that yes they really and truly are dishonest? Why are you so concerned that they like you? Why are you so concerned that people (including the other student) now dislike you? How many commitments do they have to break before you realize that they aren't going to keep any of their commitments?
"-I believe that the employee is the person most to blame for all of this mess. Hurting the shop will not harm him, it will harm the owner."
The owner is the person most to blame. He hired the employee, he is ultimately responsible. The employee shares little to no blame.
"-From what I can tell, the owner is a fairly nice guy - he doesn't seem particularly smart, nor involved enough in his own business, but he does seem nice. He's taking everything his employee tells him as being 100% true - anyone who did that would think that I'm the real 'nightmare customer' some of you make me out to be."
The #1 most important trait as a manager and leader is selecting the right people for any given job. If the employee is incompetent then it is 100% the owners fault. The owner either needs to properly train the employee or fire him.
"...While I don't feel any sympathy for anyone who chooses to run a business that has the problems of profitability that you all say LDS's have, I am MORE THAN HAPPY to pitch in a little and help out if I can"
You should only do this if it doesn't cost you anything. I will always pay with a visa because of the ability to dispute. If the guy wants me to pay with cash, he is going to have to come up with a bargain that offsets giving up my visa "insurance". This is a business transaction, you are pitching in by buying his service. If you give a concession in a business transaction you must get something in return. If you can't handle this, don't buy from little shops that ask you to do these things.
"I bought ALL of my equipment from the LDS, and I bought what he reccomended, regardless of the cost - that's why I have the super snazzy fins instead of the regular ol' ones. (and yes, they're gray, AND they look cool! )"
You should be able to get exactly what you want without feeling like you have to do them a favor to get it. The favor you are doing them is spending money at his store.
"-Similarly, the LDS owner, in one of his brief moments of clarity, explained to me that it's very expensive for the shop to fight a disputed charge. I didn't want it to come to that UNLESS THERE WAS NO OTHER OPTION."
There are no other options. No offense, but you are a wishful thinker. It sounds like you expend way too much effort trying to make people like you. It was clear a long time ago that the quality of character of everyone at the dive shop was very low. How many lies do they have to tell you before you realize that yes they really and truly are dishonest? Why are you so concerned that they like you? Why are you so concerned that people (including the other student) now dislike you? How many commitments do they have to break before you realize that they aren't going to keep any of their commitments?
Well, I don't know about you, but I'd rather have people like me than not like me.
Rather than go on yet another long rant, I'll just say this - I paid with Visa because I wanted to do something nice for the owner of the shop (I dealt with him initially), and bought the cool equipment because it wasn't a big deal to me. I figured that the expensive fins really were better (and they weren't *that* much more expensive), and I'm very fortunate in that I can afford to spend a little extra money on a better performing product, especially one that's going to last such a long time.
I agree that the owner is responsible for the people he hires, but that's a lot more indirect of a responsibility than the employee who is the actual guy doing all of the lying (as far as I can tell - can't prove that one, you know).
I'd have liked the opportunity to explain to the other guy in my class why he should'nt have been mad at me because I don't like people having the wrong impression. It's got nothing to do with bad vibes, negative energy, or any of that other New Age mumbo jumbo, it's just simply that if people are going to be mad at me I want them to be mad for a valid reason.
I don't sit awake at night wishing I could change his mind, but if I ever happened to see him on the street, I'd probably try to talk to him for a few minutes and explain things.
Make whatever conclusion about that that you want.
That's why I go to lengths (some times too far) to explain myself whenever one of you guys is critical of my position - believe me, it's not that I NEED you guys to like me - I'll probably never meet any of you, and I can stop visiting this board easily enough.
Do I CARE if you guys like me? I don't know, not a whole lot, but I'll tell you what, I like reading posts on my side a lot more than one's that aren't
Finally, as I've said from day one, I most definitely bear some of the responsibility for these problems. Due to that fact, I thought it was worth the effort to help the owner satisfy me in the least costly way to him.
Today I'll be faxing all the paperwork my credit card company in order to begin the process of getting my last remaining credit of $129.60.
Hey, if I knew a month ago what I know now, I would've just disputed the charges then, but I didn't, and I don't think that my effort has been in vain. Perhaps if something like this ever happens again, I'll be dealing with a person who can listen to reason a little bit better, and I'll be able to make solving the problem more painless for everyone...if not, oh well, it didn't kill me or anything
Rather than go on yet another long rant, I'll just say this - I paid with Visa because I wanted to do something nice for the owner of the shop (I dealt with him initially), and bought the cool equipment because it wasn't a big deal to me. I figured that the expensive fins really were better (and they weren't *that* much more expensive), and I'm very fortunate in that I can afford to spend a little extra money on a better performing product, especially one that's going to last such a long time.
I agree that the owner is responsible for the people he hires, but that's a lot more indirect of a responsibility than the employee who is the actual guy doing all of the lying (as far as I can tell - can't prove that one, you know).
I'd have liked the opportunity to explain to the other guy in my class why he should'nt have been mad at me because I don't like people having the wrong impression. It's got nothing to do with bad vibes, negative energy, or any of that other New Age mumbo jumbo, it's just simply that if people are going to be mad at me I want them to be mad for a valid reason.
I don't sit awake at night wishing I could change his mind, but if I ever happened to see him on the street, I'd probably try to talk to him for a few minutes and explain things.
Make whatever conclusion about that that you want.
That's why I go to lengths (some times too far) to explain myself whenever one of you guys is critical of my position - believe me, it's not that I NEED you guys to like me - I'll probably never meet any of you, and I can stop visiting this board easily enough.
Do I CARE if you guys like me? I don't know, not a whole lot, but I'll tell you what, I like reading posts on my side a lot more than one's that aren't
Finally, as I've said from day one, I most definitely bear some of the responsibility for these problems. Due to that fact, I thought it was worth the effort to help the owner satisfy me in the least costly way to him.
Today I'll be faxing all the paperwork my credit card company in order to begin the process of getting my last remaining credit of $129.60.
Hey, if I knew a month ago what I know now, I would've just disputed the charges then, but I didn't, and I don't think that my effort has been in vain. Perhaps if something like this ever happens again, I'll be dealing with a person who can listen to reason a little bit better, and I'll be able to make solving the problem more painless for everyone...if not, oh well, it didn't kill me or anything
I believe you're obsession with this inscedent and this thread should come to an end. Get over the ordeal and move on. I have read all the posts and believe you have already gotten the response you were looking for. Many have agreed with your position, as have I, so file it away and get on with it! If you say you have spent money on gear that costs more but you are able and willing to put out, why worry about the bottom line of the LDS? I don't see the logic! MOVE ON! In the words of the Eagles, "Get over it!".
Jetwrench
P.S. last post for me!
Jetwrench
P.S. last post for me!
The logic is simple, I paid for services they didn't render, and they owe me a refund for that.
I went out of my way to make that refund as painless as possible for the LDS...if that makes me a bad guy in some of your opinions, then OH WELL
I did buy gear that was more expensive than I intended, but I got better gear for my extra dollars - a fair deal, IMO.
What I didn't do was sign up for a $375 two day, class and confined water session.
That's it.
And hey, if you guys want me to stop posting about this, that's fine, but you can stop reading too, ya know!
I went out of my way to make that refund as painless as possible for the LDS...if that makes me a bad guy in some of your opinions, then OH WELL
I did buy gear that was more expensive than I intended, but I got better gear for my extra dollars - a fair deal, IMO.
What I didn't do was sign up for a $375 two day, class and confined water session.
That's it.
And hey, if you guys want me to stop posting about this, that's fine, but you can stop reading too, ya know!
danceswithoctopus
Guest
I'm still interested (but then, I'm easily amused). So nothing happened today?
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