LONG post about a dispute with my LDS

[Jetwrench]

Chris,
You are not in the wrong here. The LDS could have easily accomodated you and chose not to. If they do not see the value in good customer service AND relations, then they should not be in business. Find another shop and keep the story to yourself to see how they treat you. If you are pleased, tell them so and why. I'll bet you won't have any more problems. Good luck. Dive Safe! Dive Often!

Jetwrench

 

[Crrink]

So today I do my usual call the LDS owner's cell phone prepared to leave a polite message letting him know that we really need to finish discussing our differences, but instead of the usual message, a recording picks up after a few rings and informs me that his mailbox is full, then asks me to hang up.
I call the LDS and his employee answers. Basically as soon as I ask if the owner is around, the employee blurts out 'he lost his cell phone.' I say, 'oh, well, I need to get in touch with him, can you contact him and let him know?'
The employee then tells me that he's not sure if the owner lost his phone, but since his voice mail is full, he assumes it isn't with him. He then tells me that the owner is expected to be in during the afternoon.
So I wait, wondering about this odd story and odd turn of events.
In the meantime, I decide that I should check my credit card on the web to see if they've gone and credited anything to me. Much to my surprise I see a charge posted on 5/25 for $129.60. Very confusing. I first posted here on 6/4, and I KNOW I checked my credit card website by both Internet and telephone BEFORE I posted here.
So I give them a call and ask how this can be. Their best response was that it's possible the credit was posted then, but the information wasn't available for me until now. I'm even more confused.
In any event, the credit card company told me that I can still dispute the charges, all they need is for me to fill out some paperwork, and they'll begin an investigation.
I just called the dive shop back (they're closed now, and no, nobody called me), and left a message saying please please please call me tomorrow one way or the other to let me know where we stand with all of this.
So, if I don't hear from anyone tomorrow, I'll begin the process with the credit card company.

I'm kinda curious, now that those of you interested enough to keep reading all of this are seeing it unfold in real time, do any of the LDS supporters have different opinoins now? I mean, hey, even if you think I'm a real pain in the butt customer, don't you think they should at least have the guts to tell me that instead of letting me leave message after message?
Eh, perhaps I'm asking for more disparaging remarks, but still...

On a happier note, my wife, my father-in-law and are going to be diving in Catalina on July 6th and 7th. We're hooking up with an outfit called scubaluv - you guys are probably familiar with them (good things to say, I hope). 2 tank boat dive on Saturday, and some shore diving on Sunday. We're all looking forward to it...I'm sure the water won't be nearly as nice as it was in Maui, but hey, what can you do?

 

[AllenG]

First, I must note that Crrink has committed an egregious grammatical/syntactical error when he states that he has a "dispute with a LDS." The Department of Rendundancy Department has concluded that, in diving, there is only one type of dispute and that is with an LDS. Ergo, modifying the word "dispute" with the phrase "with a LDS" creates a redundancy. Alternately, if there is a LDS involved for more than 14.376 seconds, one can safely assume that there will be a dispute, hence one must again conclude that there is redundancy, which has occured for at least the second time, reflecting similiarities . . . . (Sorry Mike F., but I fear that the industry would come to a crashing halt if we no longer had the privilege to piss and moan re LDSs.)

Next, synthesizing some of the observations offered by others, I would suggest that (1) neither party comes to the table with "clean hands;" and (2) upon a recitation of the other party's complaints, both Crrink and Mr. LDS owner might be expected to refute one another with the unpersusaive position of "but what he did to me was worse."

Finally, without passing judgment on either party (and I do see strengths and weakness in both of your positions), I would suggest that both you and Mr. LDS owner should be and indeed will be pleased to no longer do business with one another. Not every customer is a good match any given LDS owner. I get the sense that both parties could arrange to be "high maintenance" and neither party is inclined to understand the other's perspective.

And in the mean time, congrats to you and Ms. Crrink on having embraced (1) the wonders of diving, and (2) the joyous bonds of matrimony. I trust that you and Ms. Crrink will enjoy both for many happy years to come.

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Crrink
I'm kinda curious, now that those of you interested enough to keep reading all of this are seeing it unfold in real time, do any of the LDS supporters have different opinoins now?

Yer a peach and he done ya wrong...

 

[WreckWriter]

I'm kinda curious, now that those of you interested enough to keep reading all of this are seeing it unfold in real time, do any of the LDS supporters have different opinoins now? I mean, hey, even if you think I'm a real pain in the butt customer, don't you think they should at least have the guts to tell me that instead of letting me leave message after message?
Eh, perhaps I'm asking for more disparaging remarks, but still...[/B]

At this point Chris, even I have to agree with you. You started out as a nightmare customer but you've turned out to be a pretty good scuba board member. You've kept us informed, really for no reason other than you felt the need to do so, you've gone into great detail, and above all, you've refrained from totally losing your cool. Ya done good so far.

At this point it looks like this guy is determined to not even talk to you. I'd dispute some of the charges, maybe even all. All they can say is no. If that fails, there's always small claims court.

Tom

 

[Crrink]

I can hardly believe it - thanks Uncle Pug and WreckWriter for the kind words...I guess all the darn typing was worth it after all
You can still dive with carpal tunnel syndrome.....can't you....?

AllenG - funny post, but one thing I'm curious about: I've taken great pains to explain what I think I did wrong as well as what the LDS did wrong. When you say that 'neither party is inclined to understand the other's perspective,' I have to disagree.
90% of the reason I posted here was an attempt to understand the LDS's perspective (since they're not really offering a whole lot in the way of an explanation).
I understand that these classes may not be big money makers, however, the varying prices that shops in the same area charge makes me wonder just how thin the profit margin is, by the way - nonetheless, I fully understand and support a business's necessity to make profit - afterall, you can't run a business as a charity and be around for very long.
As I've explained, all I want is the money I paid for services that weren't rendered, less whatever a fair penalty is for my wife getting too sick to dive on her scheduled day.
That seems really fair to me, and once I explain things this way, not too many people disagree.
I didn't pick the $300 figure out of the air. I used the only tools available to me (price ratios at other shops) to make the best guestimate that I could for what the four OW dives cost the shop.
They told me they'd refund 100% of the boat costs - which I found out today they already have. Now I want whatever they would've spent on an instructor and equipment for two days.
Like I said before, if they want to assess a penalty for my wife becoming sick, that's fine....I don't expect the shop to incur a loss for our bad luck.
If it turns out that the real figure, based on the actual costs, is $275, then that's fine, I'll take $275. If it's $400, well, I'll still be happy with $300. My point is that the real figure is greater than the cost of the boat trips....which, by the way, the LDS must be getting one heck of a deal to be able to do two days of boat diving for only $65 per student....could be possible, but I DO wonder.
All I need is for the owner to sit down and spell it out for me. So far all he's said is that the only expense is the boat (in between telling me how much be 'bent over backward' for me), and that doesn't make sense - remember our instructor cancelled on us after we rescheduled, so I can't imagine he still gets paid. If I'm wrong, then we can talk about what percentage of that I should be responsible for. It's probably about the same as the percentage the shop is responsible for with my wife getting sick...

Anyway, if you think I'm failing to take something into account, please let me know - I'm very curious. Not to mention which, if you can convince me that $129 is fair compensation, I'll be able to save the LDS and myself a lot of grief with disputing the charges.

Thanks.

 

[The Chairman]

it is gratifying to see some of the others see it too!

CCrink, your dance card has just been filled... I hope you can figure them all out! Whenever a shop manager/owner feels that they have been backed into a corner we sometimes get to see them dance. Sure, they could just communicate clearly and professionally, but many decide to see if they can dance their way out of the situation!

The relationship obviously started with the "Great to meet you polka"... a brisk and happy dance followed by the "Doe-se-doe" where he swung you round and round and collected the cash gave you the equipment and started the training.

The next dance was the "I'll meet you half way waltz"... a rather slow affair in which the LDS is trying to convince you that they are being reasonable. Apparently some toes were stepped on in the "Doe-se-doe", and he is trying to figure out the next step.

The fourth dance was "Sure, I still respect you and will call in the morning ballet". This can be painfully slow and is punctuated by a series of failed promises to communicate.

However, I think we are now seeing the "Sidestep Jitterbug" where the manager realizes you are not happy with the ballet, and that you wish to move things on a bit quicker. Of course, he's not sure what he SHOULD do next, so he is extending the dance indefinitely by coming up with all sorts of "peculiar happenings".

Not all dances are insincere. Some are more carefully choreographed than others. As a manager I have had to dance with customers and employees alike. Sometimes it was a courting dance, sometimes I had bad news to give. I always tried to use an acronym when dealing with a problem... it's called SPAR

Stop; listen to all that the person has to say. Fully understand them. Even ask questions...
Pause; think about the situation. How would YOU want to be treated? Don't make a hasty choice here and let them know YOU CARE...
Assure; tell them that you will take care of the situation fairly. Tell them what you will be doing. Be very specific and explain why...
Re-assure; Give them a time table for resolution (stick to it) and re-negotiate if needed.

You can modify this to apply to many situations... it really works well.

 

[Crrink]

Well, I called the shop again today and the employee said that the owner had meant to get back to me, but got busy and wasn't able to......o.k., I said....well, can you tell him I need to talk to him today? He said he would, and I hung up. That was at about 11am or so, today.
So, I got home and waited. No call. Around 4:30 I figured I'd give the shop one more try before I just called the credit card company and had them deal with it. Much to my surprise, the owner answered the phone. I asked him if he had time to talk, and he said yes.
Over the next hour we basically went through the whole spiel about how he thinks he bent over backward to accommodate me and that I'm being unreasonable.
The guy doesn't listen to what I say. He insists that I was not told I couldn't pick my equipment up, and he blames me for waiting until Friday night to get it.
I told him that this wasn't the case, that his employee told my wife that she COULD NOT pick the equipment up on Wednesday and Thursday....well, to boil it down, folks, basically, he doesn't believe me. He put his employee on the phone who not only told me that he never told my wife she couldn't come in, but he insistst that he bugged her to come in, but that she refused. ....uh, well...only one of them can be lying (this is a little to severe to be a simple misunderstanding), and I guess you'll all just have to trust me when I tell you that it AIN'T the woman I married.
Even though I was pretty well irritated by all this, I maintained a calm and collected voice, didn't get excited, didn't yell, didn't cut the guy off when he launched into his rants about how much he tried to do for me (the rants occur about every 8 minutes BTW).

So, then he tells me that he wants to talk to the instructors to see what they remembered - I told him I failed to see the point in that since it's now clear that the sticking point is when my equipment was made available.
He asked me for another week to talk to people, but I told him no. It's been over two months that I've been trying to resolve this, and quite honestly, I'm worried that he's trying to stall until such time that my credit card company cannot help me anymore (I was told by customer service that you have 60 days to dispute a charge, which I'm already past, however, the person I spoke to in the disputes department told me not to worry about it and that I am fine, which is good).

SO, at some point during this discussion the owner tells me that he thinks they've accidentially credited me twice for the boat fees - meaning I'd been credited $129.60 twice, which makes $259.20. He then got all cranky and told me there was no way that he could back the credit out, and pretty much blamed ME for the shop's incompetence and inability to remember how many times they've credited something to me. Now, I'm not a merchant, but I find this hard to believe, I mean, if you accidentally hit an extra zero, does that mean I get a credit for $1,296.00 and there's nothing you can do about it?? I can go laughing all the way to the bank?? Doesn't make much sense to me, but hey, I haven't operated a Verifone machine in a long time.
Anyway, I asked him what an instructor costs for 2 people to get the OW portion done, and he told me it's $75 per person for the whole weekend. I dont' know if that's true or not, you guys who do instruction will have to let me know.
In any event, I said fine, $75 for me and $75 for my wife, plus the $129.60, that makes $279.60. Then I asked him what the equipment charges were, and he went off on a rant about how equipment isn't a factor, it's not part of the cost of the class, the ONLY class costs are the pool, the boats, and the instructor. No profit, no extra, no nothing. I find this hard to believe, but by now it's been an hour that I'm arguing with him, so I said fine, get my credits up to $280 and we'll call it even.
He didn't like that very much, and he asked me for more time. I refused and told him he could either credit me an additional $20.80 ($129.60 +$129.60 + $20.80 = $280), or I was going to call my credit card company and have THEM decide what I was owed.
He then accused me of extorting and threatening him, but said he'd make the credit.

The only problem left is that my credit card company shows only a single credit on May 25th in the amount of $129.60. He swears they accidentally credited me again last week, but my credit card company doesn't see it. Now, normally I'd think he was lying, but as I posted before, I KNOW I checked my statement as late as June 4th and didn't see the May 25th credit on there....I suppose it's possible that I missed it, but I don't think that's what happened. Anyway, I called him back and told him that he'd need to provide some sort of proof of the credits he's issued.
He said he didn't have any paperwork for May, but since I could see that one already, I should be fine. He said he'd fax copies of the credits (one for $128.60 sometime around June 5th, and one for $20.80 from today) to me at work tomorrow. As long as I get those, I told him I'd be o.k. and I wouldn't have to worry about this anymore.

That's when he surprised me..........

He told me that I was wrong....that I would be hearing more about this because.......he's going to contact the District Attorney's office and file charges because I am EXTORTING AND THREATENING HIM. He said that the only reason he was complying was because I was threatening to dispute ALL my charges with the LDS, and that that wasn't fair.
I said, 'Let's be clear, I haven't thereatened to deny all the charges you've made, I've told you that I'll let the credit card company decide what I'm owed.' His response was words to the effect of he knew what a threat was, and that he was going to take action.
I told him he should do whatever he feels he needs to do, but to make sure I got the paperwork so I didn't have to contact my credit card company.

Can you believe this??? I'm extorting and threatening him by telling him that I might make use of my right to disagree with the amount he feels I'm due???

I seriously doubt he'll contact anyone, but if he does, I'm not too worried. I've been honest about this from day one, and don't see how I could be found guilty of anything beyond disagreeing with a merchant, which, I don't believe is a crime.

Anyway, to those of you who wanted to hear the shop's side of the story, I guess it's that they think I refused time and again to pick my equipment up.
Now, since I didn't record any of the conversations or anything, it's pretty hard to concretely prove who's lying here.....I mean, I guess I might be able to get phone records from my wife's work that would show her contacting the shop twice on Wednesday and once on Thursday, and I guess I could subpoena the shop's phone records to show that they didn't contact us until Friday, but hey, even that wouldn't be completely conclusive.

What a headache.

As I mentioned before, if someone wants to contact the LDS to see if they'll present their side, PM me and I'll give you the info., but since it's boiling down to a 'he said she said' thing, I don't know what it would prove.
Now, if any of you are thinking about taking lessons in the South Bay of Southern California, PM me so I can tell you to avoid this shop like the plague.

Sorry to go on another long rant. I do sincerely appreciate you guys slogging through all of this and giving me your opinions. Thank Goodness I know through you guys and my experience in Hawaii that diving isn't usually this difficult!

Can't wait to see what tomorrow brings......

-Chris

 

[Crrink]

My wife just got home and I was trying to explain this to her.... I just realized the basically the entire content of my discussion with the owner goes like this:

Me: My equipment wasn't ready on time because the tanks were empty.
Him: You should've kept your equipment the whole time.
Me: It wouldn't have mattered since my tanks were empty.
Him: Tanks aren't a problem, we have lots of those, all full.
Me: Well, my wife was told we couldn't pick it up because the tanks were empty.
Him: You should've kept your equipment the whole time.
Me: It wouldn't have mattered since my tanks were empty.
Him: Tanks aren't a problem we have lots of those lying all around the place. Tons more in the storage space we rent.
Me: Then why did your employee tell my wife she couldn't get our equipment because the tanks were empty.
Him: Tanks aren't a problem.........

And it goes on and on in circles like a broken record.

Okay, I'm gonna go calm down now.

 

[Uncle Pug]

Keep us posted!