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they belong on the boat for emergency IWR after an accident.
WW
Long hose with full-face mask?
- Thread starter MikeS
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they belong on the boat for emergency IWR after an accident.
WW
trymixdiver
Guest
WYDT
You stated it complicates Gas Sharing, and this is the controversy in here.
I agree, its a big issue when using a FFM. FFM can be used and gas sharing in a serious OOA emergancy can be done but its not a perfect system. then again nor is any scuba setup anything could happen.
Just like in tech if the 2nd stage fails you can unscew it and change it with a working 2nd if you must. This will cause water to enter the system but hey its an emergancy right.
With a FFM its the same idea. Using a quick disconnect you can "plug" into your buddies gas supply. Just like the other emergancy fix your still introducing water into the system. but your alive.
That said, you cant just take any dive buddy out, they will need the same FFM side block setup as you and u need practice using it. I used this system for 100 dives with my buddy and it worked, it is not reccommended for tech though. It is complicated and has too many failure points to use doing any serious diving.
A FFM setup can be done if your not tech diving or gas switching. FFM done right are safe. FFM are for experienced divers only because they complicate gas sharing and require extra training in there use.
As for FFM and a long hose on your back up i say absolutely yes. how your going to store it is another question. We are not dealing with standard gear here, this is specialized gear and the rules your used to using DONT ALWAYS APPLY.
FFM are specialzed gear and things are done differently when using it. You cant say a Hogarthian rig covers all equipment placement. Each specialized gear config requires modifications so it works properly. just like a RB doesnt have the exact gear configuration as tech scuba or wreck diving.
Diff configs for diff gear and diff applications.
Andy
WYDT I just feel you slammed the door on FFM and some the info i dont agree with.
And no i dont use the FFM with a side block anymore, i cant switch gases safely so i went back to Apex regs.
You stated it complicates Gas Sharing, and this is the controversy in here.
I agree, its a big issue when using a FFM. FFM can be used and gas sharing in a serious OOA emergancy can be done but its not a perfect system. then again nor is any scuba setup anything could happen.
Just like in tech if the 2nd stage fails you can unscew it and change it with a working 2nd if you must. This will cause water to enter the system but hey its an emergancy right.
With a FFM its the same idea. Using a quick disconnect you can "plug" into your buddies gas supply. Just like the other emergancy fix your still introducing water into the system. but your alive.
That said, you cant just take any dive buddy out, they will need the same FFM side block setup as you and u need practice using it. I used this system for 100 dives with my buddy and it worked, it is not reccommended for tech though. It is complicated and has too many failure points to use doing any serious diving.
A FFM setup can be done if your not tech diving or gas switching. FFM done right are safe. FFM are for experienced divers only because they complicate gas sharing and require extra training in there use.
As for FFM and a long hose on your back up i say absolutely yes. how your going to store it is another question. We are not dealing with standard gear here, this is specialized gear and the rules your used to using DONT ALWAYS APPLY.
FFM are specialzed gear and things are done differently when using it. You cant say a Hogarthian rig covers all equipment placement. Each specialized gear config requires modifications so it works properly. just like a RB doesnt have the exact gear configuration as tech scuba or wreck diving.
Diff configs for diff gear and diff applications.
Andy
WYDT I just feel you slammed the door on FFM and some the info i dont agree with.
And no i dont use the FFM with a side block anymore, i cant switch gases safely so i went back to Apex regs.
WYDT
Contributor
trymixdiver once bubbled...
That said, you cant just take any dive buddy out, they will need the same FFM side block setup as you and u need practice using it. I used this system for 100 dives with my buddy and it worked, it is not reccommended for tech though. It is complicated and has too many failure points to use doing any serious diving.
Ok, so why use it if it's (unecessarily) complicated and has too many failure points? You didn't say you absolutely needed to use one. Do you just like adding danger factors and failure points?
A FFM setup can be done if your not tech diving or gas switching. FFM done right are safe. FFM are for experienced divers only because they complicate gas sharing and require extra training in there use.
Once again I just don't see the point of using one...
As for FFM and a long hose on your back up i say absolutely yes. how your going to store it is another question. We are not dealing with standard gear here, this is specialized gear and the rules your used to using DONT ALWAYS APPLY.
The main rule I use is KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)
FFM are specialzed gear and things are done differently when using it. You cant say a Hogarthian rig covers all equipment placement. Each specialized gear config requires modifications so it works properly. just like a RB doesnt have the exact gear configuration as tech scuba or wreck diving.
The main reason I responded to the post was because the guy who told you to do it hogarthian by bungieing the long hose under your neck was totally wrong.
Diff configs for diff gear and diff applications.
Andy
WYDT I just feel you slammed the door on FFM and some the info i dont agree with.
And no i dont use the FFM with a side block anymore, i cant switch gases safely so i went back to Apex regs.
Look, I've really got nothing against FFM's and they have their place.
My original post was to correct the poster who was using the word "Hogarthian" seemingly indiscriminently with no regard for what "Hogarthian" really is.
Since you don't say you're using a FFM for one of the reasons I listed above (in my first post) I assume you are just using it because you like it. If I'm wrong let me know.
Also the part of the previous post on the FFM was a cut and past from another message board and wasn't written by me (I hope it didn't appear that way, I did leave a link to it) but it was written by someone who has a LOT of experience with FFM's and is a member of an elite Canadian SAR team. I'm pretty sure he knows what he's talking about there.
Not trying to be a jerk or anything... just wondering why someone would use something that is admittedly more complicated and dangerous when it's not needed.
DSAO!
That said, you cant just take any dive buddy out, they will need the same FFM side block setup as you and u need practice using it. I used this system for 100 dives with my buddy and it worked, it is not reccommended for tech though. It is complicated and has too many failure points to use doing any serious diving.
Ok, so why use it if it's (unecessarily) complicated and has too many failure points? You didn't say you absolutely needed to use one. Do you just like adding danger factors and failure points?
A FFM setup can be done if your not tech diving or gas switching. FFM done right are safe. FFM are for experienced divers only because they complicate gas sharing and require extra training in there use.
Once again I just don't see the point of using one...
As for FFM and a long hose on your back up i say absolutely yes. how your going to store it is another question. We are not dealing with standard gear here, this is specialized gear and the rules your used to using DONT ALWAYS APPLY.
The main rule I use is KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)
FFM are specialzed gear and things are done differently when using it. You cant say a Hogarthian rig covers all equipment placement. Each specialized gear config requires modifications so it works properly. just like a RB doesnt have the exact gear configuration as tech scuba or wreck diving.
The main reason I responded to the post was because the guy who told you to do it hogarthian by bungieing the long hose under your neck was totally wrong.
Diff configs for diff gear and diff applications.
Andy
WYDT I just feel you slammed the door on FFM and some the info i dont agree with.
And no i dont use the FFM with a side block anymore, i cant switch gases safely so i went back to Apex regs.
Look, I've really got nothing against FFM's and they have their place.
My original post was to correct the poster who was using the word "Hogarthian" seemingly indiscriminently with no regard for what "Hogarthian" really is.
Since you don't say you're using a FFM for one of the reasons I listed above (in my first post) I assume you are just using it because you like it. If I'm wrong let me know.
Also the part of the previous post on the FFM was a cut and past from another message board and wasn't written by me (I hope it didn't appear that way, I did leave a link to it) but it was written by someone who has a LOT of experience with FFM's and is a member of an elite Canadian SAR team. I'm pretty sure he knows what he's talking about there.
Not trying to be a jerk or anything... just wondering why someone would use something that is admittedly more complicated and dangerous when it's not needed.
DSAO!
trymixdiver
Guest
WYDT
"Ok, so why use it if it's (unecessarily) complicated and has too many failure points? You didn't say you absolutely needed to use one. Do you just like adding danger factors and failure points?"
I said: " A FFM setup can be done if your not tech diving or gas switching."
I did absolutly need to use one.
It was adding a little complexity or dont dive. It was within my skill lvl. I dove this set up and was comfortable with it on many many dives.
It can be done, not without adding a gas sharing issue. But like i said u can use a QD to plug into your buddies gas supply. My Aga was set up with a side block and QDs. Connecting to my buddy was practiced and it was simple.
"Once again I just don't see the point of using one"
I was diving Lake Tahoe, 34 degrees at depth. 2-3 hrs in the water.
"KISS"
I was specificlaly refering to your comparing AGA mask set ups to a Hogarthian rig. Apples and oranges my friend.
KISS is exaclty what a long hose back up is on a FFM setup. Either way in an emergancy the diver OOA gets the long hose no matter the gear in most cases. Why change it, the long hose back up it ideal.
I was answering your questions one at a time. i got to the bottom and now i see you didnt write it.
I was under the impression you wrote it, my bad.
"member of an elite Canadian SAR team"
Maybe so but some of his comments are wrong / inacurate in IMHO. And just because he says he is SAR dont mean a thing, lots of posers out there. I posted about poser navy seals a while back, take a look at the site link. you will be surprised at how many there are.
Andy
"Ok, so why use it if it's (unecessarily) complicated and has too many failure points? You didn't say you absolutely needed to use one. Do you just like adding danger factors and failure points?"
I said: " A FFM setup can be done if your not tech diving or gas switching."
I did absolutly need to use one.
It was adding a little complexity or dont dive. It was within my skill lvl. I dove this set up and was comfortable with it on many many dives.
It can be done, not without adding a gas sharing issue. But like i said u can use a QD to plug into your buddies gas supply. My Aga was set up with a side block and QDs. Connecting to my buddy was practiced and it was simple.
"Once again I just don't see the point of using one"
I was diving Lake Tahoe, 34 degrees at depth. 2-3 hrs in the water.
"KISS"
I was specificlaly refering to your comparing AGA mask set ups to a Hogarthian rig. Apples and oranges my friend.
KISS is exaclty what a long hose back up is on a FFM setup. Either way in an emergancy the diver OOA gets the long hose no matter the gear in most cases. Why change it, the long hose back up it ideal.
I was answering your questions one at a time. i got to the bottom and now i see you didnt write it.
I was under the impression you wrote it, my bad.
"member of an elite Canadian SAR team"
Maybe so but some of his comments are wrong / inacurate in IMHO. And just because he says he is SAR dont mean a thing, lots of posers out there. I posted about poser navy seals a while back, take a look at the site link. you will be surprised at how many there are.
Andy
WYDT
Contributor
Andy, this guy isn't a poser... if you do a search for cast55 on the Rodales board you'll see. He's been on that board (and on some others including DIRquest) for a long time and definitely knows what he's talking about.
Having said that I really don't care if you use a FFM or not, my original argument was with the dude totally misusing the term "hogarthian". I didn't mean to get into the argument of FFM vs not since I personally have never so much as held one in my hand. I do however remain skeptical of their benefits....
DSAO!
Quest
Guest
WYDT, I meant to respond yesterday but didnt get a change to. And thank you for the correction!
After getting your response i reviewed several of my tech books and a few dozen websites that explain the hogarthian system and realized my error.
Unfortunately the books i was referencing and these sites all lop what the called the "Bungie Style" every time they explain the hogarthian system.
It was a bit misinterpretting when the title of the chapter or subsection is called "Hogarthian Equipment Configuration" or "Variations of the Hogarhian System".
Like i said im not an instructor, just getting into tech diving and thank you for the correction.
Quest
Guest
Though i admittingly stand corrected with the use of the term Hogarthian i still am in complete disagreement with one item.
I agree the Hogarthian configuration (breathing the long hose and donating your own regulator) is the ideal configuration in most situations.
But there are situations where it is NOT POSSIBLE to breathe from the long hose. Perfect example being the full face mask.
But, lets say a recreational diver did use one of those recreational FFM that are available. Doesnt it make sense that they have a backup reg if for some bizarre reason their dive buddy had an out of air situation?
And if you agree then doesnt it make sense that the donating reg, whether your breathing the hogarthian system (long hose) or say from an FMM (short hose), resultably be a long hose?
And if that is an agreement by most of the people on this board doesnt it make sense that regardless whether your breathing from the long hose or int he case of the FFM your breathing from the short hose that your donating reg be a long hose?
If there wasnt any value in using the "Bungie Style - Donating longhose from ones retaining device" then why is it mentioned in most of the tech books and websites when they discuss using the hogarthian system?
Though i dont ever plan to use a FFM im sure some recreational divers are using it if for any other reason then cold water diving or being able to talk back and forth to each other.
Do i think FFM's are good for all situations? Nope!
Do i ever plan to use an FFM? Nope!
Can someone use an octo with an FFM? It appears so!
Should the donating reg be a longhose? It appears so!
Does the Bungie System address the issue of donating a longhose when there isnt a choice but to breathe from a short hose as a primary reg? Sure does!
Is it for everyone? Nope, but if i had to dive with an FFM (recreational style not commercial) and someone was in an out of air situation, be it in an area with limited space or open ocean, i sure would like the option of donating a reg to that person and it appears eveyrone agree's that reg should be a long hose.
I agree the Hogarthian configuration (breathing the long hose and donating your own regulator) is the ideal configuration in most situations.
But there are situations where it is NOT POSSIBLE to breathe from the long hose. Perfect example being the full face mask.
But, lets say a recreational diver did use one of those recreational FFM that are available. Doesnt it make sense that they have a backup reg if for some bizarre reason their dive buddy had an out of air situation?
And if you agree then doesnt it make sense that the donating reg, whether your breathing the hogarthian system (long hose) or say from an FMM (short hose), resultably be a long hose?
And if that is an agreement by most of the people on this board doesnt it make sense that regardless whether your breathing from the long hose or int he case of the FFM your breathing from the short hose that your donating reg be a long hose?
If there wasnt any value in using the "Bungie Style - Donating longhose from ones retaining device" then why is it mentioned in most of the tech books and websites when they discuss using the hogarthian system?
Though i dont ever plan to use a FFM im sure some recreational divers are using it if for any other reason then cold water diving or being able to talk back and forth to each other.
Do i think FFM's are good for all situations? Nope!
Do i ever plan to use an FFM? Nope!
Can someone use an octo with an FFM? It appears so!
Should the donating reg be a longhose? It appears so!
Does the Bungie System address the issue of donating a longhose when there isnt a choice but to breathe from a short hose as a primary reg? Sure does!
Is it for everyone? Nope, but if i had to dive with an FFM (recreational style not commercial) and someone was in an out of air situation, be it in an area with limited space or open ocean, i sure would like the option of donating a reg to that person and it appears eveyrone agree's that reg should be a long hose.
WYDT
Contributor
Since neither you nor I have ever even used a FFM I think our debate is rather pointless though it may be amusing to some others
If you have a long hose it should not be stuffed in a bungie. :wacko:
Hypothetical situation... If I were using a FFM and had a reg on a long hose I would "park it" by clipping it off to my right shoulder d-ring just like if I were using a stage. The hose would be routed just like if I were diving the normal "Hogarthian" setup. That's what I meant by "if you aren't breathing the longhose it's clipped off to your right d-ring".
Bob3
Contributor
I use a bailout & a sideblock with most of my FFMs, the rig has a QD. For buddy diving a normal length second stage hose is used & the whole bailout assembly is passed off, and then the QD is disconnected.
How's a guy supposed to take a nap without a FFM?
How's a guy supposed to take a nap without a FFM?
I have a couple of FFM's that I don't use because of the equipment configuration issues like sharing air and gas switches. I have thought of using one on my O2 bottle but haven't done it yet.
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