Local dive shops are really taking the pi$$!

[Genesis]

You wanted to be everything to everyone and you couldn't.

Heh, that's cool. I understand that - been there and done that too.

BUT, there is no reason for a manufacturer who plays the "quality and customer service" song as their justification for price restraints to give a dealership to anyone - irrespective of their order flow - who won't make the commitment.

If this means there are few dealers to be had for a particular thing, so be it. But what it SHOULD mean is that there are a number of dealers with different prices - you can buy your book at Barnes and Noble.com with no service but a low price, or you can walk into a bookstore and pay a bit more, but have it RIGHT NOW, right off the shelf.

Same thing for many other products. I can buy from a box, or I can buy from a boutique. Same product, but VASTLY different service levels - and prices.

As for the LDSs banding together, its not that hard to do. Of course you have to want to break the price controls.

And that goes right back to what I've said all along - no, the shops don't want to break the price controls. In fact, many of them are actually the ones agitating to KEEP and STRENGTHEN them.

Mike, you pointed this out yourself. You "broke ranks" and another dealer called the manufacturer screaming.

Does that dealer bevieve in a free market? No, that dealer supports vertical price fixing, and in fact entered into a conspiracy with the manufacturer to impose that on you.

Your understanding with the manufacturer is none of their business - remember, under the law, they cannot get you all in a room and negotiate fixed prices.

Yet that is exactly what you had happen when you were threatened - another dealer conspired with the manufacturer to fix prices.....

So much for the "innocent LDS"; you may have been Mike, but you were one of the (very) few.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Scott M once bubbled...
Ready, Set, Jump

Were do they get it? Thats easy. The manufacturers or distributor for the manufacturer. It would be impossible any other way.

Well the manufacturers deny it and I can't buy things the same way. I've fought this for 4 years WITH the manufacturers. So...if you could prove it that would be a great help.

The answer to the LDS's problem, again easy answer - group buying.

With todays communications being what they are it would not be hard to round up a large number of brand x dealers to group together and pony up a little money to hire a business person to come up with an organized plan to come up with a large order and negotiate with the manufactures. With the number of unemployed extremely qualified business people on the market today it would real easy - small salary and a commission on money saved.

As a business we faced almost exactly what the dive industry is facing now. We did the above and now have either bought out or built our own factorys to supply our product.

Just my opinion
Scott

Dive shops are treated like and oporate more like employees of the manufacturer than customers. What you are suggesting would and has been greeted like suggesting a union in a place where every one fears the boss.

Negotiate? You don't negotiate with scubapro or aqualung. They give you written terms that you either sign or don't sign and follow up with an $18,000 check or not. You would have to hurt them in the pocket book in order to even open a dialog. What are a few dive shops compared to their world wide government contract and the stuff that mysteriously leaks out and finds its way to LP.

Why would I even bother? You're not going to end up with microsoft or anything.

I have my answer. I have the contacts to get the equipment I need at good prices. Well, no great prices actually. I can get equipment for my students at good prices. I have the best fill station in the state in my garage. I don't need the agencies, the dive shops, LP and I can sure do without 99% of the manufacturers cuz they make crap anyway.

My money's gone and I aint going to get it back. That's fine. It was an adventure and lots of people never get the chance. Now that it's done though I have no time or energy left for the screwed up dive industry.

I spend the time here to explain the way it works for the benefit of those who are interested that might otherwise believe the uninformed theories of the general diving public.

It is funny though that after droping over 50 K (maybe way over, I'm afraid to look) on the shop alone and spending 4 years working very hard in this business, that there are so many who can tell me how it works after an OW class, an LP reg and a LDS pair of fins.

But you guys go show me. You organize the dive shops and explain to PADI, scubapro, aqualung and DUI how they're going to do things from now on. They already beat me. You try. Just do me one favor ok? When you finish with them streighten out the IRS too would ya cuz they're really peeing me off.

 

[MikeFerrara]

LOL. Inocent? no. Ignorant? yes.

 

[Genesis]

... its intentional.

The idea of actually having to compete bothers some people. If they can manage to keep that from ever being necessary, they will.

The manufacturers don't care. But what happened in those cases you cite is something you might have wanted to run by counsel....I know I would have.

 

[Scott M]

Mike,

Trust me I sympathise with you. One shop can not and will not effect a company like Scuba Pro but a group of 100 or more with an order in the millions at the "proper" time of year will. You can not tell me that a group of dealers going to a manufacturer during their slow time and placing an order that would keep them profitable during an other wise slow time could not get action. Would they resist? Sure but now take that same order and go to another manufacturer and so on. Some one will buy the order.

Proving that is were LP gets it's merchandise is irrelavant. The quantity they sell is proof enough. I recall a post Seajay made some time ago (can't find it now) about his experience with LP, if I recall correctly he stated when he sent his regs back LP stated one of them was defective and they would have to send it back to the manufacturer. I will look again for the post later.

Your frustration with the situation is certainly understandable (Been there, done that) and you are correct that at the moment the Manufacturers have all the control but that WILL change. As I stated our industry went through a similar situation it got so bad that the manufacturers started there own retail centers in an effort to move out the little guy. We now own those same manufacturers and have built more. It was the vision of a few dealerships that changed the course.

The down side is of course that good dealerships such as I am sure yours was have given up (with good reasons) before something could be done. Eventually the manufacturers will realize that they can not survive with on-line sales alone.

Didn't mean to offend you. I have no experience in the dive shop industry but business is business and that I do know a little about.

Scott

 

[Scott M]

I found the post. I hope I do this right. Am I allowed to copy that post to here? If not - sorry.


Weeeeell...
Okay, I thought about this all day. I've been in a horrible mood because of it.

I called LeisurePro this morning and told them that my regs are 5 months old and not holding an IP. I told them that to get them fixed, I had them serviced, and the problem is actually worse now. I told them that I could take them back to the place that did the work, but I don't trust them now and that these stupid things should still be under some sort of warranty. I seem to remember that they came with a 1-year from LP... I couldn't remember.

The dude on the other line listened for a few minutes, and in typical NYC fashion said, "Let me get this straight - you bought regs 5 months ago and now they don't work."

"Yep."

"Send them to us. We'll have our techs look at them and fix them. If they can't be fixed we'll send them back to ScubaPro. ScubaPro will either fix them or replace them - their call."

He then gave me a return authorization number and some specific instructions.

Best case scenario: I can expect my regs back in two weeks. Worse case is supposedly four weeks.

...So I mulled all day if this was the option that I wanted to take. The bottom line is that I ain't goin' back to Savannah to take more abuse. I played over and over in my mind all day when Mr. A-hole said to me, "I wouldn't want to dive with you, buddy." I wish I'd thought to say, "With an attitude like that, you'll never get the opportunity."

Whatever. The more I think about the way they treated me, the more smoked I get about it.

...Anyway, so I thought about the LeisurePro route or another option - sending them straight to EE and knowing that they're done right. Of course, I would definitely be out some money with that option... Assuming that they just do another service, I'm probably looking in the $100 range again... Which would bring my total up to $220 to fix a part that costs $120 brand new. That just doesn't make any sense.

In terms of fixing it myself... There's no doubt that I want to learn how to do that. I will definitely buy the tools... But I want my regs fixed sooner than that... And there's no doubt in my mind that getting a full set of the right specialized tools to work on that first stage is going to take longer than simply sending this stuff off.

Okay - so I'm sending these back to LP. I reassembled everything and put the original short hoses back on, complete with their built-in hose protectors. The Dive Locker would be so proud. They sure are pretty like that.

...But in the meantime, I'm going to work on equipping myself properly so that this issue never arises again. I'm going to learn this stuff and get the right tools and the right knowlege and the right parts and do it myself from here on. Might be kind of a trick to get all that stuff, but with time no longer an issue, I can do it right and end up on top of this problem next time.

Jeez, this sounds identical to my diving... Strange how my approach to this problem has mirrored the way I dive... "DIR Psychology?" Naaahhh...


__________________
"Hey, the Shut Up and Dive Police just called..."

Deep South Divers
Come Get Wet With Us!

 

[cwalker]

Perhaps there is a "middleground" that a LDS can take.

I recently bought my regs and a computer from Scubatoys.com. The brands I bought (Cressi, Aeris) allow them to advertise and sell online with a full manufacturer warranty.

Scubatoys also carries Scubapro regs and Suunto computers, but they cannot advertise them online or even sell them over the phone. Scubatoys would not discuss price at all on these items; you have to go into the store.

Plus, there are ways for a LDS to "get around" the price fixing. (Purchase a Suunto Cobra for list price $750, and also purchase a dive bag that costs $150 for $50.00.)

Overall I agree that the LDS should band together to change the current scheme. As someone stated earlier, online shops like LeisurePro are buying their product DIRECT form the manufacturer.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Scott,

You didn't offend me sorry I gave the impression you did.

cwalker,

In the US Cressi absolutly does not permit it's dealers to sell online (at least as of earlier this year). Now since Cressi is bases overseas the dealers there probably have different rules. I know the place in Spai (forget the name) sells Cressi regs for about what I pay for them and they are an authorized dealer.

For exactly this reason we refused to buy any Cressi regs. Well, they dunped us LOL.

 

[Scott M]

I agree there are OTHER ways around the suggested retail price it could be as simple as charging full price on an instore charge account then discounting the account when paid, even if it is ten seconds later. Thats how some of the major deptartment stores get around manufacturers pricing structures. I know of at least one I could site that does this.

But..........the fact is that the LDS needs to pay less for the product also in order to survive. Simply selling for less does not pay the bills. Quantity buying with discounts and rebate structures is the route to take.

An example of what I am talking about:

-Several determined LDS owners band together and form a corporation. Forming a corp is easy and quite inexpensive.

-Next they start to recruit other LDS owners from anywhere and everywhere they can although it would be wise to chose ones that are not in your area. The larger number they get the more power and "knowledge" they will have. I highlighted the knowledge part because that is an unexpected by product of one of these groups.

-When a large enough group has been formed it is time to pony up a little money each and hire a business person to start the process. With todays unemployment this would be easier than ever before as there are literally hundreds of highly qualified business people out of work. The key to this and this is a mistake that we first made is to pay this individual a salary and a commission based on the amount of money saved. Another important point is to hire somebody from OUTSIDE of the industry. You want a pro. The nice part of this is that the LDS owners only has to meet occasionally to monitor progress and make final decisions and can keep doing what it is they do to stay in business. So to this point there is not a whole lot of time and money invested. This becomes less and less as time goes on.

-Next would be to determine a few things like slow times for the manufacturers, amount of an order that could be made, and to learn every aspect of the industry from the inside (this is where hiring an agressive person comes in handy).

-Once these things are determined your rep goes to the manufacturer who is now worried (remember with your research you know the slow time of year) about making payroll and surviving the winter and places the HUGE order - providing of course there are several changes made.

Two things can happen,

-You can negotiate and make an order - this is probably not likely as the manufacturers ar use to telling you how it is going to work and they are going to have to get use to you telling them.

-Or they can throw you out. (more likely to happen) If they do you go to the next manu. Trust me someone is hungry enough to buy the order. Just think of how happy they will be going to the board of directors with the news that they just landed a huge order that is going to make the investors so happy.

So now, how long do you suppose before the ones that threw you out want your business especially since you and your group have now gone with brand y and they just lost the same amount of order you placed elsewhere. In other words not only did they lose the million dollar order but they also lost all the dealers that use to order from them but now buy brand y because they offered the discount.

Now you keep a little percentage of the savings in the corp and wait for the manufacturers that would not cooperate to start to flounder at which time you come to the rescue and buy them up and of course fire the dummy that threw you out.

On-line stores have done it with just one shop. Think about about it.

Scott

 

[Scott M]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Scott,

You didn't offend me sorry I gave the impression you did.

No problem,

As you can see I am a little passionate about the situation. As I said been there done that and wanted to share my experience in business as I have none in diving.

Scott