- Messages
- 5,884
- Reaction score
- 2,999
- Location
- Lake Worth, Florida, United States
- # of dives
- I'm a Fish!
Great excuse for apathy. Why be part of a solution when you can enjoy doing nothing instead, or help others to do nothing just like you ....
Lionfish Awareness and Elimination
- Thread starter annieols
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
Great excuse for apathy. Why be part of a solution when you can enjoy doing nothing instead, or help others to do nothing just like you ....
There's absolutely no difference between doing nothing...and doing something where the end result can't be measured, is unknown, and may actually be harmful.
Apathy is not caring or indifference. I care enough to not jump on this bandwagon just because its there.
- Messages
- 5,884
- Reaction score
- 2,999
- Location
- Lake Worth, Florida, United States
- # of dives
- I'm a Fish!
HAVE YOU EVER seen the vines that are strangling the forests of northern Fl, Georgia and North Carolina? When we go mountain biking in the Nantalhala National forest ( Tsali) each year, we see terrible effrects of this invasive species. No one did anything, and nature is slow to deal with such an attack....perhaps, once the primary canopy of the present forest is completely destroyed, and the vines are left as the dominant vegetation themselves, sucessive changes will slowly occur over the next thousand years...slowly some other species will invade into the turf of the vines, some insect will develop a taste for them, and they will be massively weakened, and maybe some hardwood species of trees can begin to make headway again--and 1000 years later, there may be a new forest as nice or nicer than what we have enjoyed over the past 50 years.
Nature paces itself in geological time. Humans live in geological instants. If we like what we have now, in the ocean, WE have to make certain it remains...Nature has it's own agenda, it's own timeline, and it cares little about keeping things any particular way. The lionfish could easily wipe out hundreds of our native species of fish on the South Florida reefs, and drastically change the experience of sightseeing on the reefs--or of seafood availabilty for the future ( ok, so there wouyld be plenty of lionfish to eat then......but why not start now?).....Again, either we are too lazy to attempt to prevent catastrophic changes now, or we decide that we had our time in the sun, and our ancestors in 2000 years will have a new shot. I really do not like this kind of thinking, and I am offended by people who embrace such philosophical defeatism.
Kudzu (Pueraria lobata, and possibly other species in the genus Pueraria; see taxonomy section below) is a plant in the genus Pueraria in the pea family Fabaceae, subfamily Faboideae. It is a climbing, coiling, and trailing vine native to southern Japan and southeast China. Its name comes from the Japanese name for the plant, Kuzu (クズ or 葛?).
Kudzu is sometimes called gé gēn[1] (Chinese: 葛根
, and (due to its out-of-control growth in the Southeastern United States) has earned such nicknames as the "foot-a-night vine", "mile-a-minute vine",[1] and "the vine that ate the South" (of the United States).[2] In Vietnam, it is called sắn dây.[3]
Man brought it here, but can't stop it now. Same with the lion fish. It's our fault, so let us try to limit the effect. It may take decades or centuries for the native fish to learn to avoid the lion fish. Is it too late? I don't know. But we can either lead, follow or get out of the way. I will take a few trips to FL this year and learn the proper use of a spear to assist in this effort.
Kudzu is sometimes called gé gēn[1] (Chinese: 葛根
, and (due to its out-of-control growth in the Southeastern United States) has earned such nicknames as the "foot-a-night vine", "mile-a-minute vine",[1] and "the vine that ate the South" (of the United States).[2] In Vietnam, it is called sắn dây.[3]Man brought it here, but can't stop it now. Same with the lion fish. It's our fault, so let us try to limit the effect. It may take decades or centuries for the native fish to learn to avoid the lion fish. Is it too late? I don't know. But we can either lead, follow or get out of the way. I will take a few trips to FL this year and learn the proper use of a spear to assist in this effort.
Hank49
Contributor
Well, there is a difference. Try controlling the roaches, termites and mosquitos manually. (swatting, stepping on, shooting with rubber bands etc) Not the most effective.
There has to be another way. Introduce another predator !!! no wait....we tried that in the Great Lakes with the Sea Lamprey fiasco.....
I think Florida has a good chance of "weeding the yard" because of shear numbers of dedicated divers. Unfortunately, other smaller countries don't have that army....
My yard is my ecosystem and I am the apex predator. A diver in the water is quite different where being on the top of the food chain is largely a matter of luck. If you view the distribution map of lionfish along the eastern seaboard several thinks become clear...
1. This is far bigger than can be controlled by what amounts to just a few divers
2. The size of this problem begs the questions...is this really simply the result of an aquarium accident or are there natural forces at work that we simply don't understand. (that would be a first)
My money is on the latter but I'll gladly stand up and call myself a dummy if history proves me wrong. We'll see if others are so willing.
One of the problems with Florida is that no one dives likely 80% or more of its waters because there's simply nothing cute to see. We equate lionfish with reef habitat but we simply don't know if they inhabit places such as a sunken car tire in the middle of a 50 sq/mi sand plain. Do we even know with 100% certainty how they breed or how their eggs get distributed when we're not looking?
I personally feel that we're using too much of our experience with land creatures such as the exotic snake problem in FL and applying it to sea creatures. Clearly in that case the snakes didn't swim or fly here unaided and were introduced by humans. My gut tells me that applying that same logic to something that swims in the open ocean who's eggs can be distributed by currents (or by another creature for all we know) is going to be a mistake that won't be realized until it can't be undone.
1. This is far bigger than can be controlled by what amounts to just a few divers
2. The size of this problem begs the questions...is this really simply the result of an aquarium accident or are there natural forces at work that we simply don't understand. (that would be a first)
My money is on the latter but I'll gladly stand up and call myself a dummy if history proves me wrong. We'll see if others are so willing.
One of the problems with Florida is that no one dives likely 80% or more of its waters because there's simply nothing cute to see. We equate lionfish with reef habitat but we simply don't know if they inhabit places such as a sunken car tire in the middle of a 50 sq/mi sand plain. Do we even know with 100% certainty how they breed or how their eggs get distributed when we're not looking?
I personally feel that we're using too much of our experience with land creatures such as the exotic snake problem in FL and applying it to sea creatures. Clearly in that case the snakes didn't swim or fly here unaided and were introduced by humans. My gut tells me that applying that same logic to something that swims in the open ocean who's eggs can be distributed by currents (or by another creature for all we know) is going to be a mistake that won't be realized until it can't be undone.
Guba
Contributor
Way too many ideas (which are paraphrased, not quoted) to address, but here are a few...
1. "Man has never truly controlled a wild population..." Really? Ask a timber wolf. Having trouble finding one? That's because they were effectively eradicated in many areas by...you guessed it...humans.
2. "Not convinced the lionfish were introduced into the Atlantic by humans?" In science, we follow the evidence, but sometimes we make inferences. There is no "trail" of lionfish reportings from their native habitat to where they are now. They simply seem to have popped up midway along the Atlantic coast and, since there is absolutely no natural mechanism that would explain their sudden appearance so far from their native habitat (we're talking essentially the far side of the planet), we must infer that they were introduced by human actions.
3. "There's no way we can eradicate them..." Absolutely true. We simply don't have any method of seeking them out at all levels of the water column they inhabit.
4. "...so why try?" The point isn't that we will not be able to eradicate them. They're firmly entrenched in the ecosystem and that is a given within science circles. The discussion is whether efforts being discussed can have an effect upon populations within certain areas. Current data suggests the answer is yes, since we see it work in other areas, many of which are land based, but others are marine. If that is NOT true, then all the research behind MPA's and UNP's must be fatally flawed, and we might as well go back to fully exploiting those areas of the ocean with no pretext of maintaining management principles.
4. "My lawn is MY ecosystem..." Yup, but your yard appends others, or at least lands that are not yours. Do you try to control those areas as well? Probably not (unless you have very understanding neighbors), but yet you still try to control yours and I assume you do some weeding of the plant and animal populations. If you ARE the apex predator, you have to predate upon something. That's what everyone is discussing...how do we manage specific, smaller sections of the overall ecosystem? Can we have an effect? There is ample evidence to suggest there are methods to do so though, as pointed out before, it's pretty early in the game and hard data is pretty spotty.
I, for one, am an optimist. I support the culling efforts and I hope the damage to reefs can be minimized through them and other actions we come up with in the future, whatever those may be.
1. "Man has never truly controlled a wild population..." Really? Ask a timber wolf. Having trouble finding one? That's because they were effectively eradicated in many areas by...you guessed it...humans.
2. "Not convinced the lionfish were introduced into the Atlantic by humans?" In science, we follow the evidence, but sometimes we make inferences. There is no "trail" of lionfish reportings from their native habitat to where they are now. They simply seem to have popped up midway along the Atlantic coast and, since there is absolutely no natural mechanism that would explain their sudden appearance so far from their native habitat (we're talking essentially the far side of the planet), we must infer that they were introduced by human actions.
3. "There's no way we can eradicate them..." Absolutely true. We simply don't have any method of seeking them out at all levels of the water column they inhabit.
4. "...so why try?" The point isn't that we will not be able to eradicate them. They're firmly entrenched in the ecosystem and that is a given within science circles. The discussion is whether efforts being discussed can have an effect upon populations within certain areas. Current data suggests the answer is yes, since we see it work in other areas, many of which are land based, but others are marine. If that is NOT true, then all the research behind MPA's and UNP's must be fatally flawed, and we might as well go back to fully exploiting those areas of the ocean with no pretext of maintaining management principles.
4. "My lawn is MY ecosystem..." Yup, but your yard appends others, or at least lands that are not yours. Do you try to control those areas as well? Probably not (unless you have very understanding neighbors), but yet you still try to control yours and I assume you do some weeding of the plant and animal populations. If you ARE the apex predator, you have to predate upon something. That's what everyone is discussing...how do we manage specific, smaller sections of the overall ecosystem? Can we have an effect? There is ample evidence to suggest there are methods to do so though, as pointed out before, it's pretty early in the game and hard data is pretty spotty.
I, for one, am an optimist. I support the culling efforts and I hope the damage to reefs can be minimized through them and other actions we come up with in the future, whatever those may be.
Hank49
Contributor
Ichthyologists believe that a large public aquarium in the Bahamas is the main culprit. They had lionfish on display in large reef tanks. They pumped in new water and discharged it without filtering or disinfecting it. This could have released thousands or millions of larvae into the surrounding waters.
Just a thought here. Given the high reproductive capacity of these fish, why aren't they in even BIGGER numbers? Lack of larval foods (phytoplankton concentrations)? Or some predator on the young that we haven't figured out yet?
Guba
Contributor
Hi, Hank
Yes, I'm aware of the aquarium info, and it lends credence to the "multiple introduction" hypothesis. I don't think the reference completely explains the entire picture (and you seem to feel the same way since you said the "main culprit" was the aquarium in the Bahamas, not the sole entity responsible) for the first sightings tended to be significantly north and the infestation emanated from there.
I think you posed a good question. Given the large reproduction capacity, it's a bit amazing that the situation isn't worse than it is.
Yes, I'm aware of the aquarium info, and it lends credence to the "multiple introduction" hypothesis. I don't think the reference completely explains the entire picture (and you seem to feel the same way since you said the "main culprit" was the aquarium in the Bahamas, not the sole entity responsible) for the first sightings tended to be significantly north and the infestation emanated from there.
I think you posed a good question. Given the large reproduction capacity, it's a bit amazing that the situation isn't worse than it is.
Similar threads
