Lets look at things from a different angle.

[ItsBruce]

As I've said before: "I am responsible for my own safety and as to my safety, a buddy is just a potential asset. However, I will consider myself responsible for my buddy's safety. In the event I feel I don't have sufficient assets to be comfortable with my safety, I'll thumb the dive. If I become worried about my buddy's safety, I'll thumb the dive." That's why I usually bring a buddy with whom I'm familiar or test a new buddy on a very simple dive.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

A lot of my diving is in a vintage equiptment configuration. two hose regulator, no BC. no alternate air source. There were no SPGs so you became very good at air management and dive planning. I have never had an OOG event. That is the way I learned to dive, this was in th late 1950's, I taught myself and most of my dives at that time were solo because there simlply weren't any other divers to buddy with. Because of that I am perfectly comfortable solo. Now most of my buddies are also in a vintage configuration, but we also know and pratice how to buddy breathe, something that is no longer taught.

I will agree with this to a point. I was taught buddy breathing in my ow class in the pool. Was this sufficient. No I don't think so. Luckily I had an instructor who agreed to unoffically teach me on several post cert dives in open water.:14: Is this required? no. is it encouraged? no. Is it a necessary skill! IMO yes! There are many things today that I have some difficulty with as far as how much instruction is required. So I have taken the proactive course and asked- Hey teach me this or show me this. You know it's not required? So what, it's required by me. As to the original question I treat every dive as a solo dive with someone else in the water. When I do dive solo I carry redundant gas and reg. I also take other precautions which I've listed in other posts in the solo forum. Would further training encourage more solo divers.:huh: I don't think so. Many people might actually be turned off of it if it was stressed what is needed. No offense to you Cap I respect your ability and experience:14: :14: but most new people do not have the innate self sufficiency to dive the way you do. Therefore to do it without redundant gas and other measures usually practiced and encouraged, for them, would be foolhardy. But what a buddy should be needs to be stressed more IMO. It should also be stressed what a buddy is NOT. He is not an excuse to not pay attention to your gas or depth or time. He can be a reminder to check those things yourself but it's not his job to. She is not there to hold your hand so you can do dives you are not trained for or have no experience with. She can be a guide and offer suggestions but the responsibility of doing or thumbing the dive is yours alone. Unless you pay him/her to do this for you. (Hire a DM, they gotta eat too.) If you tell someone you are their buddy be it. If they choose to change up during the dive and do something you are not comfy with you have the choice to correct them or just call the dive. Decide who is leading and who is following and make sure those roles are followed. If the follower decides to become the leader mid-dive(have had this happen) you need to assume role of follower until such time as the dive ends, roles reverse or new leader does something stupid and you just say screw that and offer him up to Darwin.(usually after the second or third time this idiot does the same stupid thing and you have decided not to dive with him again from this point on so he's all yours Charles.).Bottom line if you are going to buddy with me ok but we plan the dive and dive the plan. Deviate from it for no reason and you are on your own. I like to solo anyway so it's no skin off my nose. And if it's just diving for fun well I've always got redundant gas.

 

[grazie42]

Whatever your approach to diving is, is best described by what you do before, during and after every dive. NOT by your "philosophy of diving".

If you are a true "buddy diver" then you´ll make sure that your buddy (regular or otherwise) is able and willing to live up to the demands you place on him before you hit the water. That involves clear, concise communication. If you don´t, then "buddy diving" really is a philosophy and not the way you dive.

My focus for recreational diving is self-reliance. I do not expect my buddy to be there for me but will be a "buddy" for him and I am ok with the risks/benefits of that way of diving.

For technical diving my buddy will be a "buddy" or diving with someone else.

 

[dbulmer]

GaryD,
2 divers OOA - what do you do? I would think in this circumstance the mindset of the individual comes into play. My own view is that I would like to think that I would have the presence of mind to attempt to get to the surface by dekitting and then doing an ESA (dropping weightbelt). Note I said: would like to think!

That said, I have ruled out that I actually know what depth I'm at - I have gone OOA
and gone for the surface. If I knew what depth I was at I might prefer to swim up in my gear but depth would be a factor. Why the surface - if I stay where I am I will die - - if I attempt to get to the surface I have at least a chance of survival. If I'm OOA and my buddy is OOA to attempt to rescue him would be futile and would most likely end up with 2 dead bodies.

The entanglement issue: I suspect I'd die since I might not be able to dekit if the entanglement was awkward enough. If I can dekit I'd be looking for surface cover to help my buddy if I make it to the surface and can tell the boat what happened.

The problem with the scenario is that to be in the first situation does require a lot of ineptitude (barring double equipment failure which is sooo unlikely) which I hasten to add I've certainly been guilty of in the past. As useless a diver I am I don't think I'm that inept.

The second issue: This I see as more likely. But again I'd be looking toward avoiding the situation in the first place. 2 sets of eyes would be more useful than 1.

(I have also excluded the overhead either virtual deco or penetration - accidental or otherwise in my reply).

 

[Bruciebabe]

You know, M,

The more good training, the better the diver

That is an EXCELLENT point. I think, however, we need to consider the universal population of scuba divers, not just the ones we find here on the ScubaBoard.

Here we'll find those who are much more committed to diving and, therefore, are much more in tune to the critical aspects of diving.

It's very difficult to discuss such matters here because, in my opinion, we don't reflect the overall demographic of the diving population.

If one were to take the average diver, if such an entity exists, and throw him/her into the situations put forth, I think the outcome would be a foregone conclusion. Hopefuly, I'm wrong.

the K

Training, training, training. (+experience, but that takes longer)
The problem here is that most OW courses just teach the basics and advanced just expands a little on this.
Rescue is the minimum training level for a competent recreational diver.
Tech training with IANTD or TDI takes competence much further with more realistic underwater scenarios, task loading and classroom training. This is because they are preparing you for potentialy more hazardous situations.
GUE-F is also good. On one dive my buddy was launching his SMB (sausage) when I was told to be out of air, as we drifted onto our first blue water deco stop my buddy had to remove his mask. On another out of air the instructor had us both remove our masks.

 

[Diver0001]

Many things can cause problems that could affect both buddies on the dive. So what are you going to do if your buddy is not there to help? Do you think you might be a Solo Diver at that point?

Just some food for thought.

Gary D.

Nope. In that case you're a buddy team with a problem.

Entanglement in a net is the only situation that I've ever encountered that I couldn't get out of without at least partially removing my gear. It was during a training exercise and my buddy was the one who wrapped the net around me.... Even at that, I was able to remove myself from the net with a blacked-out mask on. Didn't even lose buoyancy control.....ie, it's not that hard.... My buddy had to tie me into the net to start with because with my normal config (Hogarthian) I could swim back and forth through the net without it snaring me at all.....

I've seen a hand full of entanglements in fishing line but never in nets. In all cases, only one diver in the team was affected and the others assisted without gettting entangled or making things worse. In one case I cut myself free first and then my buddy helped me remove the remains.... Given these experiences and the experience described above I think the fear of both divers getting *so* entangled that they can't help each other is pretty unrealistic. At least assuming a "clean" rig.

I guess you could think of a situation that was so extreme that even an experienced buddy team couldn't get out of it....but then my thinking is that an experience buddy team would have *avoided* that situation to start with....

Even things that look totally hopeless sometimes aren't. A few years ago a buddy team got caught in the net of a fishing boat that was fishing where it shouldn't have been.... One of the divers managed to crawl out of the net, surfaced and raised the alarm. A bystander with a cell-phone called the EMS, who called the coast guard, who radioed the boat who stopped and raised the net with the diver still in it. Both divers survived. Now *that's* team work.

That said, I believe that each diver in the team should be self sufficient but this is *not* mutually exclusive to diving in a well formed buddy team and I'm utterly convinced that a good team functions much better than a diver who assumes he's alone and expects (too) little from his buddy.

R..

 

[pilot fish]

Two divers, buddies, are at 120 ft and both out of air, for whatever reason? If no one is near you then you have to drop weights and rocket to the surface. I hope you have DAN or PADI ins because, if you are lucky, you'll need it. I know of NO training, certification level, mindset, or practice of self reliance that will mitigate your need to get to an air source, no one around with an octo to give you, and that is the surface. If somone knows a different way, I'd like to hear about it?

 

[Diver0001]

Two divers, buddies, are at 120 ft and both out of air, for whatever reason?

I'm not sure if this was directed at me or not, but I'll answer....

What you're describing is the most easily avoided "nightmare" scenario.

There is *no* reason that *anyone* should *ever* have to deal with this.

I've seen you bring up this scenario many times so I'm assuming this is your own worst case scenario. With all due respect, I don't think it demands serious consideration. In terms of dealing with this risk, avoidance is so easy that long discussions over contingency to deal with it are kind of pointless.

PF, think about risk like this. There is a ladder of ways to deal with a risk:

1) avoid
2) contain
3) contingency
4) transfer
5) accept

#4-5 aren't relevant in diving. #1-3 are the preferred ways of dealing with risk in the order of priority

1) avoid - check gauges, plan gas
2) contain - use a pony or other form of redundancy to ensure that the event can be delayed or the effects minimized
3) contingency - think about CESA's, DAN insurance etc.
4) not relevant for diving
5) unwise and unnecessary and therefore also not relevant for diving.

I'm sure we've pointed this out to you before but somehow it doesn't want to sink in. You're stuck on thinking about #3 but in order to even get that far, you ignored two other very viable and effective risk mitigation strategies....

Please do reflect on this for a while, it can bring a lot of peace of mind if you look at your risk management like this. Really.

R..

 

[El Orans]

There is a ladder of ways to deal with a risk:

1) avoid
2) contain
3) contingency
4) transfer
5) accept

Excellent list. :thumbs_up

 

[pilot fish]

I'm not sure if this was directed at me or not, but I'll answer....

What you're describing is the most easily avoided "nightmare" scenario.

There is *no* reason that *anyone* should *ever* have to deal with this.

I've seen you bring up this scenario many times so I'm assuming this is your own worst case scenario. With all due respect, I don't think it demands serious consideration. In terms of dealing with this risk, avoidance is so easy that long discussions over contingency to deal with it are kind of pointless.

PF, think about risk like this. There is a ladder of ways to deal with a risk:

1) avoid
2) contain
3) contingency
4) transfer
5) accept

#4-5 aren't relevant in diving. #1-3 are the preferred ways of dealing with risk in the order of priority

1) avoid - check gauges, plan gas
2) contain - use a pony or other form of redundancy to ensure that the event can be delayed or the effects minimized
3) contingency - think about CESA's, DAN insurance etc.
4) not relevant for diving
5) unwise and unnecessary and therefore also not relevant for diving.

I'm sure we've pointed this out to you before but somehow it doesn't want to sink in. You're stuck on thinking about #3 but in order to even get that far, you ignored two other very viable and effective risk mitigation strategies....

Please do reflect on this for a while, it can bring a lot of peace of mind if you look at your risk management like this. Really.

R..

That's very nice. It looks good in print and has the effect of making the reader feel MOMENTARILY at ease, till the fecal matter hits the spinning blades. ahhhhhhhhhhh, avoid, everything else will be fine. OK, Rotrunner, btw, it was not directed at you or anyone else but the person that started the thread, for whatever reason, #1 was not possible and you are at 120 ft with you and your buddy ooa. Now what? You are entangled, broken hose, whatever. What are your options? The surface, that's IT! No trainning, cert, or mindset can alter the fact you need air, you and your buddy are out of it, and the surface is your only option.

It'll save a lot of key strokes if you just address that scenario.