Suggestion Legal Forum

[ScubaDocER]

I was reading a post by Peter Guy today that got me to thinking. He commented on the amount of misinformation that exists about legal issues concerning diving. Is there an interest in creating a Legal Forum that would address the plethora of legal questions related to diving that seem to appear on the Board? Some questions get asked over and over and I did not know if the legal folks on SB would be willing to help moderate it or at least make sure it's moving in the right direction. We have a Medical Forum here, why not a Legal Forum. What say yee?

 

[livinoz]

<--- Attorney

The problem is that laws very from state to state and certainly from country to country. Add that to the fact that most are only licensed to give advice in one state and the complications that arise when someone thinks they are a client by virtue of reading a post you made, and it gets very complicated.

You may get come people to sign up to do it, but I don't think there would be that many. It just isn't worth the liability risk to say "yeah, thats OK" only to find out their circumstances aren't really well described in what they posted and there is some archiac law/ruling on the books in their local jurisdiction where it isn't OK.

If there are common questions, I could maybe see a sticky with some very generic information about those situations though. That you might get people to sign up for.

As I said, there are a couple of people on SB well versed in the law who have been willing to give their opinion about various scenarios in the Watson and Swain cases. But just as in the medical forums that does not mean it replaces personal l advice. I think also we need to realise that accidents can happen anywhere and that the law, as you say, varies from country to country and state to state. I think Under-Exposed gave good information about the Watson case for instance, as that was under Australian jurisdiction. But some "general" legal advice wouldn't go astray either.

That's essentially what a Legal Forum would accomplish I believe. What I learned in the Medical Forum is that there are Pulmonologists, Trauma Surgeons, Oncologists, Emergency Medicine Physicians, Hyperbaric Specialists, etc., who have chosen to participate in the discussions. Mostly to answer diving related questions and help to separate fact from fiction. All of these specialists have something to contribute and I think have been extremely helpful to a number of divers.

My hope is that since there are many different views and opinions on what is or is not a legal standing, opinion, or fact, that we can tap into the wealth of legal knowledge that already exists on SB. The same way we do in the Medical Forum. Again, I appreciate that what may hold legal muster in Texas may not in New York, it is also possible that there is a legal mind on SB that may present helpful information to those with questions. In the end it is simply a forum. A place for people with experience in a given area to share the benefits of that experience with those who seek it. Without the participation of those in the legal profession it is pointless to attempt. I still hope to hear from anyone in that area as to what they think or feel regarding this topic.

Yes, that's precisely what I meant. I personally have found the input already received by the two members I've mentioned to be invaluable.

 

[hypertech]

Hyper,

The folks in the Medical Forum have discussed that very same concept. If you give advice to someone, are you liable for it. You're probably more competent to answer that question. There is a disclaimer at the top of the Medical Forum. The docs there often temper there responses with a comment that they should seek advice from there primary doctor. Is that enough? It's these questions that might be better answered in a Legal Forum

Is there a way to legally construct the forum so that attorneys would feel comfortable participating?

I can't say whether there is a good way to do it or not because I'm just not comfortable giving advice out over the internet period. There is just no way to make sure you have all the details you need in order to give good advice. So often, what appears to be clear at first glance becomes cloudy or perhaps the complete opposite after you sit and talk to someone for a short time to get the full story.

You don't have to be in the right to cause someone an awful lot of trouble. I'm not certain what effect a disclaimer should have as some things simply can't be waived in many jurisdictions. What I do know is that whether or not it is effective is secondary to the amount of time, trouble, and money it would take me just to deal with a complaint. Its just not worth it to me. Others may feel differently.

There seems to be a big difference between how people accept medical suggestions and legal suggestions. If someone goes out to the web and gets a suggestion they should go see a doc, 99% will go get a professional opinion. When they go out to the web to get a legal suggestion to get professional advice on their specific issue, 99% of the time, they turn into a amateur attorney, create a giant mess for themselves and claim they were just doing what you told them to do and now they are pissed.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents and I'll be quiet now and hear the thoughts of others on the topic.

 

[livinoz]

I can't say whether there is a good way to do it or not because I'm just not comfortable giving advice out over the internet period. There is just no way to make sure you have all the details you need in order to give good advice. So often, what appears to be clear at first glance becomes cloudy or perhaps the complete opposite after you sit and talk to someone for a short time to get the full story.

You don't have to be in the right to cause someone an awful lot of trouble. I'm not certain what effect a disclaimer should have as some things simply can't be waived in many jurisdictions. What I do know is that whether or not it is effective is secondary to the amount of time, trouble, and money it would take me just to deal with a complaint. Its just not worth it to me. Others may feel differently.

There seems to be a big difference between how people accept medical suggestions and legal suggestions. If someone goes out to the web and gets a suggestion they should go see a doc, 99% will go get a professional opinion. When they go out to the web to get a legal suggestion to get professional advice on their specific issue, 99% of the time, they turn into a amateur attorney, create a giant mess for themselves and claim they were just doing what you told them to do and now they are pissed.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents and I'll be quiet now and hear the thoughts of others on the topic.

I don't think we're talking about personal legal advice though, just input about the legalities in various scenarios; that's the way I'm looking at it, but I could be wrong of course! One instance that comes to mind was the discussion re "double jeopardy" in the Watson case. For an ordinary member of the public like me, it was interesting to get a couple of legal viewpoints about that.

 

[mike_s]

I don't know what will be worse in this "new" forum....

non attorney's posting in it........

or attorney's posting in it.....​

 

[Gombessa]

(<--- also an attorney)

I agree generally with hypertech. I really like the idea of helping people, but as mentioned before, laws vary to such a great degree jursidictionally, and I wouldn't be able to do much more than give a generic common-law/hornbook/model code answer that would possibly (likely) be irrelevant in any given jurisdiction. In the US alone, you've got 50 states, federal and maritime laws, hundreds of potentially relevant municipal/local codes, etc...I just don't envision many questions with clear cut answers other than "you'd need to speak to an attorney." I imagine the only relatively confident answer I could give in the context of a forum post would be, "It's probably not worth the time, effort and money to bring suit against your LDS for not accepting a return on that mask." And you probably didn't need an attorney to tell you that

Also, since regardless of jurisdiction, the outcome often turns on the provable facts, what hypertech mentioned about not getting the whole story is dead on. I can't tell you how many times I've sat here forming a conclusion about a post, only to have it turn completely on its head when some seemingly insignificant (or blatantly outright) fact comes to light and turns the entire analysis on its head.

 

[RJP]

I can't say whether there is a good way to do it or not...

Ever hear the joke about the guy who was looking for a one-armed lawyer?

Seems he was tired of always hearing "But on the other hand..."

 

[ScubaDocER]

Hypertech, Gombessa, and livinoz:

Thank you all for taking the time to respond. I appreciate your input and thoughts on the subject. Perhaps it is more cumbersome than I thought. I was not thinking in terms of actually helping with an individuals law suit per se, but advice to Instructors for legal concerns they may face when taking students to diving locations, advice to people traveling abroad (if you know it), helping people understand what constitutes negligence or malpractice, general stuff like that. Even in the Medical Forum I do not try to "fix" a persons medical problems, but try to guide them if they have questions about diving with asthma, diving with blood pressure medication, diving with seizures, etc. My responses are not intended to establish a doctor/patient relationship, but to try to offer my opinion as a person in the medical field. If it were limited to that scope of view, would you guys feel more comfortable participating? Again, not to be a persons attorney, but to offer your opinions on areas you have experience with.

 

[Thalassamania]

I think it might be useful because few divers (including Instructors) really know much about legal matters and even fewer lawyers know diddly-squat about diving. A little cross pollination can be a good thing.

 

[Peter Guy]

For what it's worth, my opinion is, Why Not? It couldn't be worse than the current situation.

Yes, each jurisdiction is different, BUT, it appears the vast majority of issues are from people in Common Law jurisdictions and most of the issues revolving around diving will be similar. Just as most of the Docs on the Board don't go into specifics, I doubt that many of the lawyers on the Board would either.

BUT, to the extent that people ask general questions, there are often general answers that, unfortunately, are too often answered incorrectly under the current system.

I also don't believe (based on nothing except my own beliefs and what I believe is "common sense") that I, or anyone else, would be opening up oneself to much liability by posting our opinions.

 

[RJP]

I also don't believe (based on nothing except my own beliefs and what I believe is "common sense") that I, or anyone else, would be opening up oneself to much liability by posting our opinions.

Excellent - now the rest of the attorneys on the board can claim "justifiable reliance" and go after PETER if they ultimately have an action brought against them based on advise given here...

Now that we've gotten THAT settled, who wants to draft the hold-harmless agreement, um, oops, I meant "user agreement" that participants in the legal board will agree to sign in exchange for good and valuable consideration, receipt of which is hereby acknowledged...