Learned Wrong...

[Akimbo]

… That weights need to be ditchable in emergencies. That is wrong… for saturation divers. I have yet to hear an intelligent reason why that is not a valid safety option for all other divers, recreational through surface-supplied. Granted, a belt that is accidently lost can also be a hazard.

Sorry I didn't clarify - by ditchable I mean ripcords or the quick-release snap type on BCD's, not standard weight belts...

I was never attracted to integrated weights mainly because it made the rig heavier for handling on deck. The balance was somewhere between “not what I was used to” and awkward the few times I tried one. I personally prefer the simplicity of a weight belt, but the option to dump part the weight can be useful on some profiles. I can see it as a reasonable option for people with back injuries/ailments who must don and doff in the water before climbing the ladder. Please enlighten me, is there more that makes this truly wrong or is does it fit the sub-optimal category?

As far as the instruction comments, not everyone takes the time to analyze things or speak precisely. It is sort of interesting how so many people have a visceral response on both sides of this debate with very little analysis of the actual changes — especially in a culture that seems to be dominated by “I’ve got mine and screw everybody else” thinking. An “ideal” combination of old and current training will still have plenty of room for improvement — along with everything else in life.

 

[Mike Boswell]

One of the biggest issues I have with the NAUI OW student handbook is their emphasis on ditching weights at depth ... there's even a big-ass picture in the manual showing a diver standing on the bottom while holding their weightbelt out at arm's length.

What's missing is that this is an option one should only consider if it's a choice between dropping your weightbelt or drowning ... otherwise, swim up and drop your weights at the surface ... to assure that you stay there. It's supposed to be a last option ... something you do only if there are no other means of getting to an air source.

Where I dive, it's not uncommon for divers to be wearing 30# or more on a weightbelt. Drop one of those at depth and you're gonna look like Free Willy when you breach at the surface ... and if you're lucky you'll remember to keep an open airway for the duration of the ascent.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Modern BCD's, with their straps and buckles, adjustments, velcro cummerbunds, inflator valves, dump valves, weight pockets and alternate air sources, are a little complicated for new divers to master. They are difficult to operate with thick gloves on. I read statistics about the higher frequency of new divers being injured. I often wonder how many new diver injuries are due to panic or uncontrolled ascents, and I wonder what role these feature-loaded BCD's and ditchable weights play in this.

 

[Akimbo]

I'm still unclear what you meant by, "I have yet to hear an intelligent reason why this is not a valid safety option for all other divers..." I can give you lots of intelligent reasons why a diver - ANY diver, not just saturation divers - should not ditch their weight. Would you like to hear them, or did I misunderstand your statement?

Are you saying it is NEVER appropriate to ditch weight or just rarely? Listing the many scenarios where ditching weight is a bad option isn’t in question. That’s why very few commercial divers trust their safety to the failure-prone buckles that dominate sport diving. Very few divers die from a simple single failure — three or more often conspire. Obviously dumping weight is a critical safety option for freedivers. It can be appropriate after some BC failures, during injured diver recoveries, sensing a loss of consciousness, or catastrophic gas supply failure where you are in freediver mode.

When the choice is give up and drown on the bottom or get bent, I’ll take my chances on a chamber ride any day. Even if I know omitted decompression will kill me (far outside for the recreational range), I would rather have comrades fish my remains off the surface than risk searching for them.

 

[Deep South Divers]

(Double post - sorry!)

 

[Deep South Divers]

Are you saying it is NEVER appropriate to ditch weight or just rarely?

Well, using the term "never" is a bit scary to me... It implies an absolute that I'm uncomfortable with. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that you should NEVER NEED to ditch weight AT DEPTH.

...Because, yes, I can think of several scenarios where ditching weight might be appropriate... On the dock before the dive, for example. In the pool after performing a weight check. Moments before drowning or dying, so as to aid the people recovering my body (aren't I nice?).

...But if you're looking for a practical rule, I would say that no, it's never appropriate to ditch your weight at depth... Unless you're attempting to gain insight into what it's like to experience DCS and/or barotrauma from an uncontrolled ascent.

Obviously dumping weight is a critical safety option for freedivers. It can be appropriate after some BC failures, during injured diver recoveries, sensing a loss of consciousness, or catastrophic gas supply failure where you are in freediver mode.

In freediving, divers weight themselves to be neutral, just like scuba divers do... I have never met one thst preferred to handle an emergency by creating an uncontrolled ascent for himself (a second emergency). In every situation I know of, a freediver would handle an emergency by swimming to the surface in a quick, powerful, and controlled motion.

During the recoveries I've done with injured divers, I have helped them to maintain neutrality... Which requires a dumping of their BC (getting HEAVIER, not LIGHTER) during the ascent. At no point have I ever had any injured diver ditch his weight, although I am aware that it's an option at the surface if more bouyancy is desireable. In some injured diver cases, part of the reason why I don't bother to ditch at the surface is because I didn't want the distraction, and it caused more problems to ditch than the extra bouyancy would resolve.

A catastrophic gas failure should be addressed by having your buddy donate gas. Ditching weight in this scenario is wholly inappropriate, and would create a second emergency that would make management much more difficult. After all, it's tough to "share air" if you're shooting for the surface in an uncontrolled ascent.

When the choice is give up and drown on the bottom or get bent, I’ll take my chances on a chamber ride any day.

Well, of course... Me too. But you forgot two options, which are better than both of those: Ask your buddy for air or swim to the surface. You speak as if your weights are sticking you to the bottom and preventing you from ascending. If that's the case, then you are dramatically overweighted, and you SHOULD ditch your weights... Before the next time you go diving.

I would rather have comrades fish my remains off the surface than risk searching for them.

That's very polite of you.

I have to admit, if I was in that situation, I would think that my brain would be so concerned with how to get my next breath and prevent death that there wouldn't be much other room in there for being considerate to the recovery team.

For what it's worth, with the last body recovery that I did, the guy floated on his own, despite the 128 lbs of lead that he was wearing. Sure, it took almost two weeks, but even with all of that weight on, he still floated.

...So you can rest assured that the recovery team will do just fine whether you die floating or not.

For what it's worth, the coroner listed his cause of death as a heart attack while scuba diving. I don't know if the guy had a heart attack or not, but when I brought him into the boat, his tank was empty and he'.d clearly tried to - unsuccessfully - ditch his weight, which was tied in, duct-taped in, bungeed on, and dropped down his wetsuit. Since wearing so much lead on his belt was hurting his hips, he"d sewn suspenders onto it, and then put a jacket-style BC on over it. His quick releases had been duct taped shut, since they were also broken from the strain of so much weight in the weight pockets and BC pockets.

In short, the guy had lost his buddy (fairly common in our dark waters) and kept diving. When he ran out of air, he couldn't ditch his weight, and he drowned in 14 feet of water. He was an "around here" diver that felt that the standard practices of scuba diving like proper weighting, bouyancy and trim didn't apply "around here."

So I suppose that it could be argued that if he'd been able to ditch his weight, he'd be alive today... And while that's true, his inability to ditch wasn't the problem. The problem was that he was overweighted in the first place. Had he not been overweighted, he could have simply swam to the surface had he run out of air... No weight-ditching drama necessary.

I wish that I could have talked the coroner into explaining the truth of why he died, rather than listing this as a heart attack. The dive community and other divers need to see what happened and figure out how to prevent more deaths, not write this off to a freak occurrence or accident.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Modern BCD's, with their straps and buckles, adjustments, velcro cummerbunds, inflator valves, dump valves, weight pockets and alternate air sources, are a little complicated for new divers to master. They are difficult to operate with thick gloves on. I read statistics about the higher frequency of new divers being injured. I often wonder how many new diver injuries are due to panic or uncontrolled ascents, and I wonder what role these feature-loaded BCD's and ditchable weights play in this.

They might play a role ... but perhaps not in the way you think. What is most confusing isn't so much the functional features such as inflators and weight pockets, but how to adjust the BCD for proper fit. What you most commonly see is a diver who, on a surface swim, has shoulder straps up around his ears ... or who has a waistband so loose that the weight pockets flop around ... pulling the diver off balance. While these problems aren't directly attributable to an accident, what they do is to reduce diver comfort, and sometimes create a distraction or stress event that leads to other issues ... ultimately building to the point where an accident can occur.

The single most important thing that any BCD can do is fit properly. Once that's achieved, features such as weight pockets, inflation devices and alternate air sources are easily mastered. Style and simplicity are personal preferences ... at a recreational level, pretty much any BCD can perform well if it fits right ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Mark Derail]

New instructors (post-2005 PADI instructors) and it was in the PADI manual (uh oh, I think), to fully deflate before ascending. I do that, then again, I use the proper weight amounts...

The reason being you want to swim up, at the same speed or slower than air bubbles, to prevent uncontrolled ascent. Always be in control.

However at the safety stop I will inflate a bit if I'm not on a line.

There are still old-school instructors out there that teach to deflate the BC before ascending.

 

[Dirty-Dog]

New instructors (post-2005 PADI instructors) and it was in the PADI manual (uh oh, I think), to fully deflate before ascending. I do that, then again, I use the proper weight amounts...

The reason being you want to swim up, at the same speed or slower than air bubbles, to prevent uncontrolled ascent. Always be in control.

However at the safety stop I will inflate a bit if I'm not on a line.

I don't think there's anything wrong with what you're doing, so long as you're not dropping into the reef when you dump all your air. But you can easily be in total control as you drift up without swimming. Maybe I'm just too lazy to swim unless I really HAVE to, but that is how I ascend.

 

[Akimbo]

Well, using the term "never" is a bit scary to me... It implies an absolute that I'm uncomfortable with. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that you should NEVER NEED to ditch weight AT DEPTH….

I would place the emphasis on “SHOULD never need to ditch weight at depth”. I guess we agree that dumping weight is for emergencies that SHOULD never happen, but we all know can and do, albeit rarely.

...But if you're looking for a practical rule, I would say that no, it's never appropriate to ditch your weight at depth... Unless you're attempting to gain insight into what it's like to experience DCS and/or barotrauma from an uncontrolled ascent...

Here is where there is some distance between us. I have regularly practiced free ascents since my first Scuba class in the early 1960 as do many people trained in that era or in the Navy. It is reserved for those drop-dead decisions and is dangerous to those who are, IMO, inadequately trained on several levels. You have probably read my posts that expound on the psychological value which I believe exceeds skill itself.

...In freediving, divers weight themselves to be neutral...

More specifically for others reading this, the accepted standard for freedivers is neutral at 20 Meters/66' or the target depth, whichever is shallower. The objective is to be positively buoyant through most of the water column as a partial safety measure against SWB (Shallow Water Blackout) and to minimize the workload (save O2) at the most critical part of the ascent.

... I have never met one thst preferred to handle an emergency by creating an uncontrolled ascent for himself (a second emergency). In every situation I know of, a freediver would handle an emergency by swimming to the surface in a quick, powerful, and controlled motion. ...

Not sure I understand. There are no ill-effects to a freediver that makes a very buoyant ascent from depth. Look at the competitive standards for the No-Limits class for Apnea divers. I think that most freedivers disagree with this assessment and view dropping their weight belt as the recommended procedure whenever there is concern of a blackout of serious disability.

If we are talking about recreational Scuba divers, the appropriate use is when the choice is between the POSSIBILITY of DCS which has slower acting, less serious, and more treatable symptoms than being found lifeless from anoxia on the bottom. To a lesser extent, the same is true for barotrauma, which is entirely within the ability of a well-trained diver to prevent — with the exception of the extremely rare cases of a blocked airway. My rule is to avoid these maladies in this order:

1. Drowning
2. Barotrauma
3. Decompression Sickness
4. Getting run over by a boat

... During the recoveries I've done with injured divers, I have helped them to maintain neutrality... Which requires a dumping of their BC (getting HEAVIER, not LIGHTER) during the ascent. At no point have I ever had any injured diver ditch his weight, although I am aware that it's an option at the surface if more bouyancy is desireable. In some injured diver cases, part of the reason why I don't bother to ditch at the surface is because I didn't want the distraction, and it caused more problems to ditch than the extra bouyancy would resolve. ...

If they are breathing and other divers are there to assist it is foolish to dump their weight — no question. In rescues I have experienced, dumping weight by rescuers was on the surface only and usually so they could be hauled aboard. That has never been an issue on surface supplied operations because there are so many hands available, but dragging a suit full of Jello over the gunnels is a challenge on a small boat or inflatable.

...A catastrophic gas failure should be addressed by having your buddy donate gas. Ditching weight in this scenario is wholly inappropriate, and would create a second emergency that would make management much more difficult. After all, it's tough to "share air" if you're shooting for the surface in an uncontrolled ascent. ...

There’s that word SHOULD again. Regardless of the source, you don’t need to dump weight when you have breathable gas. Nobody is discussing that. When visibility is bad, your buddy can’t be found quickly enough, and/or it all hits the fan; do you recommend passing out and sinking to the bottom until rescued?

...Well, of course... Me too. ...

Other than developing the initial skill and maintaining it as a reflex, I think we are largely in agreement when it is appropriate use to dump weight. Unfortunately the options for divers who don’t are to panic and die, pass out trying to decide what to do, or kill themselves trying to make a free ascent they lack the skill and emotional preparation for.

...I have to admit, if I was in that situation, I would think that my brain would be so concerned with how to get my next breath and prevent death that there wouldn't be much other room in there for being considerate to the recovery team. ...

Unfortunately, most divers have not invested enough thought or training to make this possible. Panic causes far too many people to get stupid and kill themselves. You might find this post interesting if not the entire thread: Panic in the experienced diver?

 

[*dave*]

I was taught "Never hold your breath", but I can't recall ever meeting a person able to equalize without doing just that.