learn from tables or dive computer?

[eckybay]

I just got certified recently. We learned with tables - no computers used at all in the class. I got a computer after getting about 15 or so dives in. I still look at the tables before I get in the water so I have some idea what my limits are should some thing happen to the computer. That said, love the computer, enjoy downloading the profiles to my desktop. My dive buddies, who are both computer-less, have learned to put up with my stern looks and finger waving when they are ascending too fast.

 

[BIGSAGE136]

Use the tables in the beginning. You will really benefit from the experience. Also remember that in the event of computer failure you should have still previewed the dive on tables so that you have your safety zone in your head.

 

[Jersey Chris]

I am sure pretty much everybody here will be in agreement to learn the tables first. How do you know if your computer is not acting goofy if you cant check the tables as back up and believe me computers do have glitches on occasion. Say you are at 100 feet and your computer says you have 43 minutes and you have never even looked at the dive tables to realize you will be well into deco by then. Learn the tables well first and then go to a computer.

 

[SoonerBJJ]

There doesn't seem to be much room for debate here. This is taken from a local dive shop website and sounds kind of crazy to me:

Our Courses Are Dive Computer Rated!
Computer rated means that we no longer use tables (Developed in the 1950's as a "sliderule" for calculations). Why? For several reasons,

Safety,
Not for most of us: tables are calibrated for males (Marines) 18-25 years old, in peak physical condition, 95% of us don't fit this profile
Loss of Diving Credit: tables assume you descent to a certain depth, say 30 feet and stay there the entire time. There's not a reef in the world that's this flat.
Ascent rate alarms: tables don't have ascent rate meters or alarms, nor do they beep at you!
Oops I made a mistake!: tables don't beep, or warn you if you are about to do something wrong or are doing something wrong, you have to wait to get to the surface to find your mistake, which is often too late.
Many live-aboards and operators REQUIRE computers because of the increased safety factor

Up to Date Technology: As medicine changes so do dive computers, tables can't be updated by pluggin them in! Engineers haven't used slide-rules in years, neither should we. Or Ask a college student when the last time they did math by hand? (okay some calculus & physics don't count!)
Removes human error

Convenience
Ever see groups of divers scramble for log books and tables at the end of a dive? On a boat? What about just sitting back and relaxing after the dive and let your computer calculate everything for you.
Log book is right in your computer, most are downloadable into your PC!

Fun
We've come to learn how to scuba dive and have fun, if we wanted to spend our vacation scratching our head over math we'd go to an insurance seminar.
You can do more diving in one day with a computer than tables

Value
Get more diving dollar because you can do more dives per day. Example, try doing 8, 80-90 feet dives with tables, it can't be done, but with a computer it can! Just dive Flower Gardens.

 

[Jon-boi]

That does seem crazy...

Some of he safety items listed don't quite add up I think. A dive computer might beep at you and tell you thing but it doesn't stop anyone from doing the wrong thing, you can still stay down too long or ascend too quickly....

Also computers, like tables, don't know about _your_ fitness level - there is nothing definite about tables/computers its all mathematical models.

I'd go with everyone else and say learn with tables. They aren't difficult and you can always cross check your calcs with your buddy.

I admit I have a computer and got it quite soon after OW but I still check the tables before and after a dive.....

Happy diving

 

[packman]

Or Ask a college student when the last time they did math by hand? (okay some calculus & physics don't count!)

When I was in school (90s) everything outside of simple arithmatic was done by hand.

And learn with tables. It's not rocket science. This shop is going to have some poorly prepared divers when their computers fail on them.

 

[bradshsi]

There doesn't seem to be much room for debate here. This is taken from a local dive shop website and sounds kind of crazy to me:

Our Courses Are Dive Computer Rated!
Computer rated means that we no longer use tables (Developed in the 1950's as a "sliderule" for calculations). Why? For several reasons,

Safety,
Not for most of us: tables are calibrated for males (Marines) 18-25 years old, in peak physical condition, 95% of us don't fit this profile

That's a gross oversimplification by the LDS. The US navy dive table was calculated for young males. The PADI/DSAT RDP table (for example) is most definitely not. This table is specifically calculated for the average recreational diver.

Loss of Diving Credit: tables assume you descent to a certain depth, say 30 feet and stay there the entire time. There's not a reef in the world that's this flat.

This is true up to a point. Tables are less useful for multilevel dives, although with planning and some calculations they can be used.

Ascent rate alarms: tables don't have ascent rate meters or alarms, nor do they beep at you!
Oops I made a mistake!: tables don't beep, or warn you if you are about to do something wrong or are doing something wrong, you have to wait to get to the surface to find your mistake, which is often too late.
Many live-aboards and operators REQUIRE computers because of the increased safety factor

So in the world according to the LDS you need a computer to regulate a basic skill every diver can and should easily accomplish (control of ascent rate). What's wrong with that picture ?

Contrary to what they say computers can't warn you about every stupid thing. they can't do gas planning for you, they can't stop you diving stupid reverse profiles or take into account the booze bender you were on the night before. That whole statement reminds me of the classic StarTrek line

"Computer how long until we die ?"
"8 minutes left to say goodbye."

Up to Date Technology: As medicine changes so do dive computers, tables can't be updated by pluggin them in! Engineers haven't used slide-rules in years, neither should we. Or Ask a college student when the last time they did math by hand? (okay some calculus & physics don't count!)
Removes human error

I'll grant you using the computer can reduce some types of errors. Then again I don't see tables being recalled because of a programming error (unlike computers). Plus not all computers can be programmed with new algorithms. Often it's a case of buying a new computer.

Convenience
Ever see groups of divers scramble for log books and tables at the end of a dive? On a boat? What about just sitting back and relaxing after the dive and let your computer calculate everything for you.
Log book is right in your computer, most are downloadable into your PC!

Yep that's one feature I really like, the downloadable log.

Fun
We've come to learn how to scuba dive and have fun, if we wanted to spend our vacation scratching our head over math we'd go to an insurance seminar.
You can do more diving in one day with a computer than tables.

They obviously have a curious concept of math. Tables are basic arithmetic. If you haven't got the intellectual horsepower to use tables you shouldn't be diving IMO. Yes you can do more multi level dives in one day if you compare with a square profile table, but as I mentioned above there are ways around that.

The LDS sound like a bunch of slackers, who don't want to attempt anything too challenging (for them or their students). They shouldn't be in the business of teaching.

 

[MikeFerrara]

We had a discussion on this here recently and there seemed to be quit a few instructors in favor of having stundents learn on computers only. They also seemed to feel that the beepers and alarms were of some real benefit.

I'm one of those who thinks that you should learn tables. If I wanted to hear beeping on a dive I'd bring my truck...the crazy thing beeps about everything.

DOWN WITH BEEPERS!

 

[halocline]

The one point of contention here is that I feel that ascent rate indicators and alarms are very good things for a new diver. Remember being surprised at how you had suddenly ascended 10 ft or more on your first dives in blue water? The ascent rate indicators can be a really good training tool for developing buoyancy awareness and control. Now, I assume bottom timers have ascent rate indicators, in which case they'd be the best of both worlds for training.

I'm also in favor of learning dive tables as a new diver, but I'd take it one step further and require OW students to learn a little more about deco theories and suspected causes of DCS. Being well aware of all the various factors that increase risk for DCS is going to make a bigger difference in safe diving than either table fluency or computer dependency, I would venture a bet to say.

 

[jbd]

Our Courses Are Dive Computer Rated!
Computer rated means that we no longer use tables (Developed in the 1950's as a "sliderule" for calculations). Why? For several reasons,

Safety,
Not for most of us: tables are calibrated for males (Marines) 18-25 years old, in peak physical condition, 95% of us don't fit this profile

Just this part of of the quote has enough horsepockey in it to keep me from being intersested in taking any classes with them.

As for alarms and beepers, there are so many going off UW that its obvious the divers
using computers aren't any more skilled than the ones with no alarms.