LDS Bashers

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rockjock3:
You don't put a location on your profile but I think you might be in my area. I know what you mean.

The LDSs advertise those deals and then every 10 people they take they get a 1 free spot. Those free spots go to the owner first and then to employees as they earn more free slots. The local club divides the savings of the free spots to the club members that are going on the trip.

This is another example of how the LDS benifits (thousands of $$ at a time) indirectly from customer sales that many people don't ever think about. You get a shop owner that books 4 trips a year and gets a free ride each time then that can easily be $8000-$10000+ that that owner is making extra each year. They don't want you to know or think about that though.
Its not a free trip--if you are doing your job you are working..either teaching/controlling the rowdys in the group/entertaining/making sure everyone is following safe pratices/checking in at airport/dealing with resort on any problems that always come up..sometimes you wonder why you let everyone know what room you have because they knock on the door at all times..fix broken equipment..deal with finicky camera systems..it does not end..but then every trip I put together ran with anywhere from 26 to 30 people..The owner rarely if ever gets to go-he is busy running the store at home.Our instructors go...the ones who know what they are doing at the particular location the trip goes to..
 
ZzzKing:
This thread is really gonna have to work to ever surpass the Mask on Forehead thread. My proposal is to eliminate all content and vitriol and just reduce it to:

LDSer: You are evil because you won't buy from me. Grrrrrr.
Basher: You are evil because you won't sell me what I want for what I want to pay. Grrrrr.
LDSer: You are ignorant.
Basher: You are a bad businessman.
LDSer: You are a cheapskate.
etc. ad infinitum

You get the idea. With each of these as separate posts, we can get the page count up in the hundreds in no time. Come on guys, let's give those mask guys a run for their money!

Thanks for making my a day a lot brighter! Good thing I had put my drink down before I read this post!
 
PhilEllis:
Actually, it would be impossible to open a scuba retail store with an initial investment of only 70K. Bare bones, it is more like 150K minimum. But, I really wanted to address another issue.

I see this internet v LDS issue from both sides, because I am both. I operate a full-service retail, service, and training center in Decatur, Alabama and I also operate a full-service scuba internet store with substantial sales. I understand the problem of the local scuba store in great detail, and unfortunately, understand why MOST of them are barely breakeven and will probably face closure in the coming few years. I will attempt to lay out a couple of reasons here.

1. THERE ARE TOO MANY LOCAL DIVE STORES IN THE US. Leisure Trends, the only third-party scuba retail tracking service in the US, estimates that there are approximately 2710 retail scuba stores in the United States. That's an average of over 54 stores per state. I understand fully that south Florida and the immediate coast of California account for a lot of them, but still, a very large number of stores on average. With a few exceptions, most states only have 8 or 10 cities with populations over 100,000. That means there are a lot of scuba stores serving markets with a population of only 10, 15, 25, maybe 50 thousand people. We all know it. We see little stores everywhere we go. In a town of 50,000 people, using the generally accepted statistics, that would be a certified diver population of 500 people. Of those, only about 10% would be active, money-spending, local divers. The local dive store in this situation is trying to make a living off of 50 active divers! NO SERIOUS BUSINESS MAN would EVER open a store in such a market without an IMPRESSIVE plan to greatly expand the market beyond the local community. Short of opening a catalog or internet store, I know of no way to expand this market.

2. EVEN IF THE STORE LOWERED IT'S PRICES, THEY CAN'T SURVIVE. There is a lot of argument that if the store was more price competitive, they would be in a far better situation than they are in now. This argument assumes that their high price is THE problem. Not even close. See point number 1. All lowering the margins would accomplish is a lower net profit. Because, their market CANNOT benefit from the higher volume normally associated with a lower price. Their market is too limited by a poor business decision made before they even opened the doors for the first day. See point number 1.

3. THEY CAN'T BECOME A VALUE-ADDED RETAIL OPERATION TO SURVIVE. The argument that they should charge more for classes, charge more for air-fills, do something different in the service department, offer more travel services.....all in an effort to transfer revenue streams away from retail sales where they are not competitive simply will not work. There isn't enough volume of service work, training, and air fills in most stores local market to make up the difference. And trust me, all increased volume at the air station would do is increase the net number of dollars lost on air fills. Outside of south Florida and coastal California, NO SCUBA STORE is making money filling cylinders. Those that think they are are either cutting MAJOR corners (not doing air testing, not properly changing fiters, running without product liability insurance), or they have no clue about their real costs. Travel is an absolutely break even proposition. No way to make any large amount of money there. Also, you have to always remember point number 1.

4. THEY CAN'T "OFFER YOU A BREAK" BECAUSE YOU ARE A LOYAL CUSTOMER. I will make this short. See point number 1.

There are only TWO solutions for the problem of the local scuba store. One is to radically increase the percentage of the population they enjoy the sport of scuba diving. I am not talking about doubling here. Having twice the number of divers wouldn't even come close to solving the problem. It would take a sea-change in the portion of the population who are actively diving to continue to support the number of dive stores we have here in the United States. The ONLY VIABLE SOLUTION is for every store, especially those in small physical markets like mine here in Decatur, to radically expand their market in order to become both more competitive and profitable. Local scuba stores in small markets (most of them in the US) WILL close if they don't expand the market massively. The only way I know to do that is the internet. But that is an entirely more difficult issue than it seems to most people. Starting a scuba internet operation requires more investment than starting a brick and mortar store. I know. I have done both. Starting my brick and mortar cost approximately $170K. Launching my internet store had a start-up cost of $190K. Another problem is that many local dive store owners don't possess the ability to launch an internet store. Even when you spend a lot of time and effort launching an internet store, the sales don't automatically come. One scubaboard user BRAGGED on this board about working for 5 years on a website and producing a total gross sales of "over $40,000 in those years. It takes that much EVERY TWO WEEKS to succeed.

We need to face it. There are too many stores. Too many of them were opened in markets that should NEVER have had a dive store in the first place. The internet will continue to carve a hole in an already bleak outlook for the local scuba store. But remember, EVEN WITHOUT THE COMPETITION OF THE INTERNET, the outlook for many of them is already bleak. The internet competition is only throwing additional straws on the pile. Finally, a half a century after the dawn of the scuba diving business as a retail pursuit, the little straws, all piling up one by one, have become too heavy for many stores. It's not a LDS vs internet argument. It is WAY deeper than that. And what I have outlined here is only ONE of the problems. There are many, many more. I may throw my 2 cents in on those later. Anyway, just my opinion. Thanks.

Phil Ellis
Dive Sports Online
www.divesports.com
(800) 601-DIVE


Nice, intellegent post. Stated the reality of this business extremely well.
 
Puffer Fish:
Nice, intellegent post. Stated the reality of this business extremely well.

I Concur... makes me wonder even more how in the world the 7 shops in my local area stay open.... there is hardly ever anyone in them and no one but a handful show up at the holiday parties each year... and they're the same 10 - 15 people year after year. Most od the "dive" shops around here stay in business selling snorkeling gear only to people going on vacation... and thos people account for high margins.

An $8 snorkel for $45
A $50 pair of fins for $189
A $20 mask for $110

Wallah... $78 into $344.... 6 times each week is enough to pay the rent $1596.00... then they scramble for dinner scraps with the rest of the income...
 
ghostdiver1957:
I Concur... makes me wonder even more how in the world the 7 shops in my local area stay open.... there is hardly ever anyone in them and no one but a handful show up at the holiday parties each year... and they're the same 10 - 15 people year after year. Most od the "dive" shops around here stay in business selling snorkeling gear only to people going on vacation... and thos people account for high margins.

An $8 snorkel for $45
A $50 pair of fins for $189
A $20 mask for $110

Wallah... $78 into $344.... 6 times each week is enough to pay the rent $1596.00... then they scramble for dinner scraps with the rest of the income...

Makes one wonder why this is not obvious to everyone. We have two shops here. I suspect that this has been the case all along, only the internet has provided a really big excuse for some. I left the industry 25 years ago for the same very reasons - too many stores, not a big enough customer base and there was no internet. All the internet has done is make the issue more public and put a bit more pressure on the industry as a whole.
 
Vtdiver2:
The problem I see with this whole thread is it's perpetuating the same ole "us versus them" thing. You have many on this board that have an "all dive shops are evil" mentality and do all their purchases from Larry or whatever internet site they want...
OTOH, those that do business the old fashioned way are no better. They think "all that buy online are evil"...
...When people use that mentality in other ways, they are considered racist, sexist or bigoted, yet here on Scubaboard, that type of mentality is tolerated when discussing this topic. I don't understand it. If you don't like your LDS because he's greedy of whatever, find another, but don't ball all LDSs into one and call them evil, because they aren't.
... It really is surprising and there are a lot of hidden costs that I had no idea existed. Things that I thought were money makers ( classes, airfills)were instead loss leaders.
The bottomline is the industry is changing, in some ways for the good, in others for the worse...
I think it's funny that people are always looking to change things, thinking it's for the better. But, ask someone that's been around awhile, and they talk about "the good ole' days".
In closing, to those on both sides of the issue, can we just keep it civil and get along. The bashing is childish and gets old.
Just my 2psi,
C-Dawg

I think your comments are great.

Let's see, technology was going to: destroy the paper industry around 1980, destroy the economy by eliminating jobs, and the internet was going to create a new world order. Big banks bought up all the little banks and the small guy would suffer. Gee, Weyehuser and Cascade seem to be thriving, employment is increaseing (after the dot com bust killed the economy for a couple of years :11doh:) Borders and Barnes and Noble have more and bigger bricks and mortar stores than ever despite the internet threat. New small local banks are opening everyday to cater to the market void left by the BIG BOYS!

The industry will survive after going through transition. I love my LDS and buy from them all the time after doing all my research on-line eyebrow
 
Let's see, technology was going to: destroy the paper industry around 1980, destroy the economy by eliminating jobs, and the internet was going to create a new world order. Big banks bought up all the little banks and the small guy would suffer. Gee, Weyehuser and Cascade seem to be thriving, employment is increaseing (after the dot com bust killed the economy for a couple of years :11doh:) Borders and Barnes and Noble have more and bigger bricks and mortar stores than ever despite the internet threat. New small local banks are opening everyday to cater to the market void left by the BIG BOYS!

The industry will survive after going through transition. I love my LDS and buy from them all the time after doing all my research on-line eyebrow[/QUOTE]

In the real estate industry, things were just about the same, the internet was going to put all Realtors out of business. those of us who has embraced it though prospered, so obviously this was BS.
 
PhilEllis:
Starting my brick and mortar cost approximately $170K. Launching my internet store had a start-up cost of $190K.

I think you've paid about 10 times more that you should have for your internet store.
 
To your LDS arguement I would simply say look at ScubaToys.com. THEY ARE A NORMAL LDS WITH ALL OF THE COSTS, INSURANCE, ETC. that you gripe about and yet they are thriving. With or without the LDS Diving is not going anywhere. If you are so schooled in economics you should realize that anytime there is demand someone will step up and supply that demand. Will it be a LDS in todays traditional sense maybe, maybe not. Will it be ScubaToys, maybe, maybe not but you can be assured that SOMEONE WILL PROVIDE SUPPLY TO MEET THE DEMAND. The bottom line is that ALL industries evolve as a result of change (the only constant is change) Companies can either embrace the change or they can whither and die.

Puffer Fish-EXCELLENT POST. I live in a town of 3 million people and there are still WAY too many shops. Using your math that equates to around 3000 active divers. A quick look on the internet yellow pages comes up with 19 shops in town. This equates to 157 people per store..

I also agree with Vtdiver2. Although it is usually argued as a black and white, us versus them, arguement it is really 1000 shades of grey. Take my example of ScubaToys.... Are they an LDS or are they an internet site? I buy my gear both on the net and at my LDS.

Just my 2 cents...
 
I don't know what all the fuss is over. I've bought stuff online and at my LDS. Honestly, I just don't know if most or all of your local shops are charging insane prices on equipment. My LDS comes pretty darn close to (or sometimes even beats) the rates of the etailers like LP and Scubatoys. Now, if you're buying a single item and trying to do a price comparison I can see where the trouble lies. Most of the time, if you've got an ongoing relationship with the shop and/or buy equipment in fits and starts with multiple items, you'll be able to work something reasonable. If that's not the case then maybe you should give a shop a call and do mail order if you're not keen on the whole online buying experience, which I grew tired of the first time I had a problem with an item I bought.
 

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