Sideband
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Whine & Cheeze anyone?
Joe
Joe
LDS Bashers
- Thread starter 1fastcat
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piikki
Contributor
1fastcat:
By the time I had burned about 2K at LDS this summer, I started kind of hinting that maybe, just maybe I could get a free magazine form the pile now and then or joked around about a little discount. The response was:
"My prices are so low that you will not get any more discounts than the guy who buys Aquaseal tube."
This policy has been clear from the beginning, and by the way I do buy from LDS except for stuff he can't get me, and impulse purchases on the road. I am considering other things though because even though I understand and agree with most of the issues you present I am very very tired of hearing that same (raging) lecture about going-out-biz nearly every time I go to the LDS. I really do not think I need to hear it every time - even though I sympathize.
P.S. Does it amaze you how often people pay more for things on eBay than they cost new in the shop?
Barracuda2
Contributor
We had one area LDS located between two larger cities (Toledo, OH-Fort Wayne, IN) For us divers up in the northwest corner of Ohio it was a real convenience; air, repairs, products, training, etc. It was only a 20 mile drive for me to get what I needed. First, he had to compete with the Diving catalogs (Divers Direct) and others before the number of internet sources sored. He was able to keep his head above water (no pun intended) because he was the only one around here. Then the internet did him in. His bottom line began shrinking for all of the reasons 1fastcat mentioned. Now he's gone, and I have to go to the shops in Toledo or Fort Wayne to get what I need, or use the internet. I use the LDS's for important equipment like regs or custom suits so I have a place to get repaired, measured, or just complain to. Fortunately, because of my connections with area law enforcement agencies and the county search and recovery team, I can get my air through the local fire depts., however, I'm always wondering how well those guys take care of those compressors!!
I'm also a business man who works out of my home. I can underprice other video producers and photographers in the area because I don't have the overhead that a lot of them have. My editing suite is in my basement and my photo studio is in my garage. If I had a store-front to support, (rent, heat, AC, insurance, upkeep, etc.) my prices would be right up with everybody else. You have to be in business for yourself to really understand what 1fastcat is talking about. My $.02
I'm also a business man who works out of my home. I can underprice other video producers and photographers in the area because I don't have the overhead that a lot of them have. My editing suite is in my basement and my photo studio is in my garage. If I had a store-front to support, (rent, heat, AC, insurance, upkeep, etc.) my prices would be right up with everybody else. You have to be in business for yourself to really understand what 1fastcat is talking about. My $.02
PerroneFord
Contributor
I've made comments on the LDS vs. Internet shop in the past so I'll keep this brief.
In other forms of retail, from clothing, to cars, to chocolate bars, companies are BEGGING retail outlets to get their products on the internet. The increased exposure, and marketing that THEY DON"T HAVE TO PAY FOR, is seen as a boon. I haven't seen Chevrolet asking people not to advertise their cars, even if they are not GM dealers. I have not seen Levi Strauss asking Sears or even Wal-Mart not to advertise sales on jeans.
So why is it, in the dive industry, large dive manufacturers cannot seem to embrace the sales and marketing strategies employed by the rest of the retailing world? The answer is simple, and it comes down to simple economics. The LDS's are very used to 50-200% profit on their items. They have done it for years. And now, the little guy is able to be profitable with a 10-25% margin because they carry far less overhead. This model can be seen in retail operations like Amazon with books, Lowes/HD with hardware, etc.
Competition kills the weak or the unprepared. Some LDS's are flourishing in the wake of the market shift. Others are closing their doors. Gone are the days when you could prop up a sign, get in some gear, hire a couple of college kids to run it, and make 200% of the next ignorant customer through the door. LDS owners are now going to have to work harder for their money.
As GM and Ford scratch their heads and try to figure out why they are being outsold in their own country by upstarts who have neither the economy of scale, or price competitiveness, people like Honda, Subaru, and even BMW, are cleaning thier clocks. When your business relies on the ignorance of the customer, and unreasonably high profit margins, to keep the door open, it's only going to be a matter of time before your luck runs out.
All that said, I support my local LDS's as much as possible. I've spent nearly $2k with them over the past 4 months. I have made 2 internet purchases in that same period of time. One for a BC where I asked my LDS to split the difference in cost with me and they refused. And one where I needed something my LDS's didn't carry. I would GREATLY prefer to support my LDS's if they give me a good product at a fair price. And I'm sorry, I don't think that asking me for 100% over dealer cost is a fair price.
In other forms of retail, from clothing, to cars, to chocolate bars, companies are BEGGING retail outlets to get their products on the internet. The increased exposure, and marketing that THEY DON"T HAVE TO PAY FOR, is seen as a boon. I haven't seen Chevrolet asking people not to advertise their cars, even if they are not GM dealers. I have not seen Levi Strauss asking Sears or even Wal-Mart not to advertise sales on jeans.
So why is it, in the dive industry, large dive manufacturers cannot seem to embrace the sales and marketing strategies employed by the rest of the retailing world? The answer is simple, and it comes down to simple economics. The LDS's are very used to 50-200% profit on their items. They have done it for years. And now, the little guy is able to be profitable with a 10-25% margin because they carry far less overhead. This model can be seen in retail operations like Amazon with books, Lowes/HD with hardware, etc.
Competition kills the weak or the unprepared. Some LDS's are flourishing in the wake of the market shift. Others are closing their doors. Gone are the days when you could prop up a sign, get in some gear, hire a couple of college kids to run it, and make 200% of the next ignorant customer through the door. LDS owners are now going to have to work harder for their money.
As GM and Ford scratch their heads and try to figure out why they are being outsold in their own country by upstarts who have neither the economy of scale, or price competitiveness, people like Honda, Subaru, and even BMW, are cleaning thier clocks. When your business relies on the ignorance of the customer, and unreasonably high profit margins, to keep the door open, it's only going to be a matter of time before your luck runs out.
All that said, I support my local LDS's as much as possible. I've spent nearly $2k with them over the past 4 months. I have made 2 internet purchases in that same period of time. One for a BC where I asked my LDS to split the difference in cost with me and they refused. And one where I needed something my LDS's didn't carry. I would GREATLY prefer to support my LDS's if they give me a good product at a fair price. And I'm sorry, I don't think that asking me for 100% over dealer cost is a fair price.
R
redacted
Guest
mnj1233:
I really don't feel too sorry for the LDS that agrees to wear the handcuffs. 15 years ago there may have been little choice. Today there are lots of choices. Yet some LDSs pay $10 thousand to the dealer to wear those handcuffs. I think they may just be into S&M.
Penopolypants
Contributor
All of these arguments against buying online would hold more water if it weren't for the fact that there are many successful dive shops that are both an LDS and an online dealer.
My LDS is authorized to sell products online....am I ruining the LDS industry by buying their products online and having it shipped 5 miles to my home rather than walking into the store and purchasing it there? Either way they're getting my money. And I can still walk in their store and chat with them about products, training, and getting my purchase repaired under warranty while getting my tanks filled.
The argument that you lose your warranty if you buy online for most products is a myth that has been dispelled many times. If you buy from an authorized online dealer you have the warranty. If you buy from someone who is not an authorized online dealer you do not have a warranty. End of story.
My LDS is authorized to sell products online....am I ruining the LDS industry by buying their products online and having it shipped 5 miles to my home rather than walking into the store and purchasing it there? Either way they're getting my money. And I can still walk in their store and chat with them about products, training, and getting my purchase repaired under warranty while getting my tanks filled.
The argument that you lose your warranty if you buy online for most products is a myth that has been dispelled many times. If you buy from an authorized online dealer you have the warranty. If you buy from someone who is not an authorized online dealer you do not have a warranty. End of story.
Barracuda2
Contributor
PerroneFord:
piikki
Contributor
awap:
I am too green to know better (and obviosuly not doing a search and researching right now) but what actually is the great rub that keeps shops taking on these companies who 'handcuff' them? And then whining about it to customers...
Now there must be something mutual - definately. Can't be just 'tradition' and 'good products'. If there was true resent and a group decision to drop these companies because they impose these rules it would have already happened. Or are these deals for 10 yrs at a time? It hasn't happened, so there must be some respect and/or something else???
PerroneFord
Contributor
Barracuda2:
No, you are going to have to elaborate here for me. Are you saying that the likes of Toyota, Honda, Lowes, etc., are just "putting out products"? Last I checked they were doing EVERYTHING. And I have YET to see a car manufacturer refuse to service something their company made just because the customer bought it from a non-branded dealer. Why would they throw the repair dollar out the window because they didn't get the sales dollar? Anyone stupid enough to do that SHOULD go out of business. This is my argument againt this whole SP crap. SP made the product. It sold it to a dealer or wholesaler for what it felt was a fair price. WHO CARES what that wholesaler or retail then sells it for. If they want to GIVE them away, SP has it's money already. As for not giving a warranty, you BUILT it, SOLD it for a fair price. If you won't offer a warranty, it smells like fraud in my book.
The dealer margin at GM, used to be 16% if they sold at MSRP. If a global giant like GM could make marginal products, and give dealers 16% of the pie, and have dealers not only survive but thrive, then something is GROSSLY wrong in the dive industry if retaliers cannot survive with the 50-100% profits they are currently getting.
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