LDS Bashers

[Jim Ernst]

Having lurked around the site for the past few months, I continue to be amazed at the absolute ignorance in economic principles of the LDS bashers on this site.

Let me see if I have this correct - a store owner who has retail rent, retail commercial insurance, employee wages, taxes and benefits, retail inventory carrying costs should sell his products for the lowest price available on the internet.

And you, Mr. internet only shopper, should be able to waste his employees' time and use his store to see-touch-feel the products before you order on-line. In essence he is the free showroom for the internet providers.

Now, you economic geniuses, help me with the math - if I have retail overhead, and sell at a margin that is too low to substain my overhead expenses, I guess I'll just lose money to stay open for your window shopping convenience.

Don't blame your LDS for trying -heaven forbid- "TO MAKE ENOUGH OF A PROFIT TO MAKE A DECENT LIVING". I guess it is ok for you to make a good wage/salary that allows you extra money to buy diving equipment and support your diving expenses, but it is not ok for the LDS owner or employees to be able to pay rent/food/utilities and maybe have a little bit extra to spend?

Those of you who indicate that you got "ripped off" by your LDS - Did you bother to ask if they offer a discount for buying a substantial amount of items, or an expensive item? If you didn't, then shame on you.

I know that there are some "slam em" LDS shops out there, but the vast majority that I have shopped at are owned by diving enthusiasts, who quite frankly, are sacrificing their optimum earning potential by continuing to operate a retail storefront.

Those of you on this site constantly preaching to newbies and others to abandon the LDS in favor of your "great internet buying experience" are doing a disservice to all divers. Oh, and I'm sure, because of your total disdain for the LDS, that you send your tank via UPS to your "amazing internet dive speciallist" for filling. Oh, what's that you say Mr. Genius - you fill your tanks at the LDS, geeze thanks for paying the bills.

When the LDS's are out of business, I'll make sure to come over to your house and use your $20,000 compressor. Oh, and make sure that you have a nitrox system as well. And don't expect me to pay for the maintenance, repair and eventual replacement cost. Oh, and please make sure you are a certified diving instructor and are willing to OW certify all the new divers in your area at a break even cost or even a small loss (by the way I want to see your $2,000,000 liability policy before you train me).

Next time you read about more companies closing down plants/offices to open in Mexico, India, Pakistan etc. realize that you - even in you infantile "I have to pay the cheapest amount for everything" mentality, are fueling offshoring.

And perhaps, your employer will come to you and tell you that you can either cut your wages/salary by 40% or lose your job, because "everyone has become so cheap that we can no longer make a profit".

Am I an LDS owner, no. Just someone schooled enough in economics to understand the principles behind retail economics, and smart enough to realize that WITHOUT THE LDS, DIVING IS A DYING SPORT (I'm sure that so many of our newbies were inspired to begin diving by surfing the internet, seeing a dive site, and taking their online OW certification course).

There is a vast difference between being a smart buyer, and being cheap.

i am very very loyall to my current lds, i was also very loyall to my former lds, well the former just tried to RUIN my reputation,

 

[747pilot]

I'm new to diving and just would like to share something. I'm all in favor of supporting my LDS, even went so far as helping him fix his compressor (2 hours worth). Then I started reading this and other web pages. Found out I didn't want some of the gear that he sold. He gets an attitude with me and tells me that if I don't shop with him then he won't teach me. I told him that I get to decide where I spend my money. Drove 3 hours to deal with a different LDS. The first guy ended up charging me $145 for the PADI book "Go Dive" and cover (that doesn't include the DVD). I had already written in it so didn't have a choice but to pay him. Will he ever get any more of my money...NO!
BTW, so far the other shop has sold me $4500 worth of gear. Bad business move on the part of the first shop. I hope he reads this...

 

[redacted]

The first guy ended up charging me $145 for the PADI book "Go Dive" and cover (that doesn't include the DVD). I had already written in it so didn't have a choice but to pay him. ...

Unfortunatly, your story is not a rare occurance in Scuba retail. You were screwed by an LDS that for some reason thinks it has an exclusive right to your business. I would not have walked away from $145 for a book. I would have offered to replace the book (bought elsewhere) and insisted on the full refund. And if the offer (or something equitable) was not accepted, I'd be naming names (here) and repay him with all the adverse advertising he has earned.

 

[Swan1172]

Padi doens't have a 32% card. They have a up to 40% card. The requirement for the Nitrox cert requires you to go to your LDS to learn how to check your own mix and do your two checkout dives.

You can do the discover nitrox program with is basically just an adventure dive which might be what your talking about. You still have to do one dive on 32% for that though. Afterwards however you cannot dive on nitrox unless you complete the actual specialty or you dive with an instructor and then only on 32%. There isn't a card for that though.

As for the online training. There is nothing on the PADI site that I could find that they dropped anything. They only launched it on October 19th of this year and they have no release of any type that is announcing it as ending. They also have no indication of it ending when you go to the portion of the site for the elearning.

Thanks for the clarification. The PADI website is where the confusion started, as the website says that, "Successful completion of DISCOVER Enriched Air NITROX will allow you to dive with enriched air blends with up to 32 percent oxygen. You'll be able make enriched air dives within the no-stop limits of the air Recreation Dive Planner (RDP) or an air-based dive computer, to a maximum depth of 30 metres/100 feet (depending on current certification level and experience), under the indirect supervision of a PADI professional (Divemaster, Assistant Instructor or Instructor) who is enriched air certified."

BTW, what the hell is indirect supervision? It sounds like an oxymoron to me.

 

[747pilot]

Unfortunatly, your story is not a rare occurance in Scuba retail. You were screwed by an LDS that for some reason thinks it has an exclusive right to your business. I would not have walked away from $145 for a book. I would have offered to replace the book (bought elsewhere) and insisted on the full refund. And if the offer (or something equitable) was not accepted, I'd be naming names (here) and repay him with all the adverse advertising he has earned.

AWAP

Thanks, I did all that. I even called PADI and asked them to intervine or at least moderate. They really wanted to help and even called him and spoke to him for about 25 minutes, but couldn't do much. I offered to replace the book but no dice. I paid with a credit card and could have (probably should have) canceled the charges with them. In the end I felt that I wasn't going to stoop to his level. He knows what kind of person he is and so will others. A friend who was going to have his wife get certified met him and didn't like him and won't go back and all this was decided before I told him my story. He's the only game in town for about 100 miles. What comes around, goes around.

 

[redacted]

AWAP

Thanks, I did all that. I even called PADI and asked them to intervine or at least moderate. They really wanted to help and even called him and spoke to him for about 25 minutes, but couldn't do much. I offered to replace the book but no dice. I paid with a credit card and could have (probably should have) canceled the charges with them. In the end I felt that I wasn't going to stoop to his level. He knows what kind of person he is and so will others. A friend who was going to have his wife get certified met him and didn't like him and won't go back and all this was decided before I told him my story. He's the only game in town for about 100 miles. What comes around, goes around.

Many folks are reluctant to name names in a situation like this. But if you post the name, someone usually contatcts the shop, advises them of what is transpiring, and invites them to participate as they see fit. I believe in some cases, such an actions has motivated the involved parties to work out a fair solution. It can be good or bad publicity, depending on the facts that are publicly revealed and how they are handled by the parties involved. Your call.

 

[747pilot]

Many folks are reluctant to name names in a situation like this. But if you post the name, someone usually contatcts the shop, advises them of what is transpiring, and invites them to participate as they see fit. I believe in some cases, such an actions has motivated the involved parties to work out a fair solution. It can be good or bad publicity, depending on the facts that are publicly revealed and how they are handled by the parties involved. Your call.

Again thanks. I don't really wish to do that. Let's just say that the shop in question is in central Washington state in a town that starts with the letter W. If you're reading this and think that you may be dealing with this shop, be carefull! Enough said.

Cheers

 

[ZzzKing]

just wondering if we get college credit for reading through all this

I think you get something even better. You get insight into an industry that directly impacts you and lets you know how your purchasing decisions can impact it. It is more or less evenly covered, although not by any single individual (seems like most of the posters are squarely in one camp or the other). Best of all, you don't have to pay by the credit hour.

Free knowledge. You can't beat that!

 

[O2BBubbleFree]

I made it through 308 posts in one sitting! Must be a record.

I am not an economist, or even as smart/self trained as some (lamont), but I think competition is always a good thing, be it internet, global, whatever.

If I had an LDS like some of you (club atmosphere, reliable info) I'd be more inclined to spend money there. I have two in my area, one manned by a teen-aged salesman that 'is planning on getting' his OW cert, and no-one else in the shop.

The other got onto me for thumbing through a book I was considering buying. "I can't sell books that have been handled." Guess what, I don't buy books I know nothing about. He has since shrink-wrapped all the books in his display, and I'll be buying from someone else.

When my dive buddy took his 'puter in for a new battery he had to first fend off a sales pitch. Don't just replace the battery, replace the computer! Yeah, right.

So far, my online experiences have been good.

 

[mdb]

Again thanks. I don't really wish to do that. Let's just say that the shop in question is in central Washington state in a town that starts with the letter W. If you're reading this and think that you may be dealing with this shop, be carefull! Enough said.

Cheers

747pilot. Any diver in Wenatchee may be better served with a trip to Yakima, Kennewick, or Seattle metro. Not all LDS stores pull that tired "buy from me or the highway" Glad to hear that you stayed with it and are now a fully equipped diver.